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Does anyone work in a hospital?

Is it normal procedure to ask the family of a patient whether or not, if it came to it whether you'd want them resuscitated? If a) the patient, although Very ill is not necessarily terminal, b) the patient is able to speak for themselves and c) there is no DNR.
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Comments

  • We were asked this with my missus old man
  • They like to get a good idea of the feeling of the family. Sometimes the patient is not fully aware for the seriousness of their own illness. As a result, the patient does not have to agree to a DNR being put into place.
  • Not for Resusitation is standard practice for patients whose illness is so severe that the resus process could technically revive them but at "a cost". Bringing back someone is not what you see on casualty. It's an assault with prospect of broken ribs and other trauma. In all likelihood for a few more hours or days of life.

    It should always be discussed with the patient and family.

  • My mother who was 86, had a heart attack at home. We got her to hospital where she had another. We were asked if it happens again, did we wish prolonged ressuscitation to be used, bearing in mind her quality of life could well be diminished.
    We accepted the medics judgement.
  • Not for Resusitation is standard practice for patients whose illness is so severe that the resus process could technically revive them but at "a cost". Bringing back someone is not what you see on casualty. It's an assault with prospect of broken ribs and other trauma. In all likelihood for a few more hours or days of life.

    It should always be discussed with the patient and family.

    Yes they said about being very thin and frail.

    Thanks all.
  • Is it normal procedure to ask the family of a patient whether or not, if it came to it whether you'd want them resuscitated? If a) the patient, although Very ill is not necessarily terminal, b) the patient is able to speak for themselves and c) there is no DNR.

    Did training on this recently. As i understand it a nearest relative should be consulted. Occasionally doctors will fill out the form without consulting, but this should not happen. One of the nurses on my course recently went to visit her mother on a ward and found the dreaded form in her medical notes and went ballistic. Her mother was quite ill but again not terminal. She definitely took it up with hospital management.

    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jun/17/hospital-patient-rights-do-not-resuscitate-addenbrookes
  • edited August 2014
    If a hospital cannot be bothered because the patient is "old" they will simply be devious and lie.

    My father was starved and given nothing to drink. I asked why and was told that he was being prepared for an operation later. Fair enough I thought. However this went on for 3 days with no operation when he then died.

    Liverpool Care Pathway by the back door in other words. It didn't matter what we thought as a family they were going to kill him anyway.

    In the case of my step father they simply left him on the floor all night with a fractured hip after he fell out of bed. He died some days later too.

    Watch your relative like a hawk and trust nobody in hospital.

    I know.
  • Very sorry Len, that is terrible!

    In this case patient is 73 years old, has TB and lost loads of weight regardless of antibiotics went down to 6.5 stone, she is 5'10" so very thin, she was admitted after a secondary infection got to her lungs. She is conscious and is speaking although is very ill, she is on 24hour oxygen and is too weak to walk at the moment. This doesn't mean she is going to die though and I found it quite disturbing that they were asking these questions whilst she was able to think and speak for herself, surely if she wanted a DNR she would have asked for one. They also said it to every relative as if they knew something was going to happen. Hence why I asked if it is normal, maybe they just do that when they think the patient is going to die?
  • Sadie, I had a phone call only two weeks ago asking if my Mum whose very frail and in the later stages of COPD should be resuscitated. Having already discussed this with mum I knew the answer to give, fortunately she got over the infection and is now back at home at 77 and six stone and having been bed bound for three years resuscitation would do her so much physical damage, plus she told me in no uncertain terms I would get a clump. ;) it's still not a nice thing to do, I've been asked three seperate occasions.
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  • LenGlover said:

    If a hospital cannot be bothered because the patient is "old" they will simply be devious and lie.

    My father was starved and given nothing to drink. I asked why and was told that he was being prepared for an operation later. Fair enough I thought. However this went on for 3 days with no operation when he then died.

    Liverpool Care Pathway by the back door in other words. It didn't matter what we thought as a family they were going to kill him anyway.

    In the case of my step father they simply left him on the floor all night with a fractured hip after he fell out of bed. He died some days later too.

    Watch your relative like a hawk and trust nobody in hospital.

    I know.

    I am sorry to hear about your father and step - father and their poor and inexcusable experiences. However the care most people receive from the NHS is good and the overwhelming majority of those work in healthcare are hardworking, dedicated and compassionate and would be angry and horrified to hear of your experiences.

    I do think, no matter how angry you are, that it is unfair to suggest Health Care Staff kill people, can't be bothered to help them if they are old, and are untrustworthy.

    Hospitals are now especially careful to seek patients and relatives opinion about such a sensitive issue and rightly so. Resuscitation is a brutal process and likely to lead to broken bones and teeth. Not all people want themselves,or their relatives to go through that .

    I think that the care pathway mentioned is a different issue to do not resuscitate.
  • LenGlover said:

    If a hospital cannot be bothered because the patient is "old" they will simply be devious and lie.

    My father was starved and given nothing to drink. I asked why and was told that he was being prepared for an operation later. Fair enough I thought. However this went on for 3 days with no operation when he then died.

    Liverpool Care Pathway by the back door in other words. It didn't matter what we thought as a family they were going to kill him anyway.

    In the case of my step father they simply left him on the floor all night with a fractured hip after he fell out of bed. He died some days later too.

    Watch your relative like a hawk and trust nobody in hospital.

    I know.

    That is extremely unfair Len.

  • edited August 2014
    This is one where we will have to agree to disagree.

    I can understand those who work for the NHS defending it but I can only speak from my own experience.

    Suffice to say that I hope I drop dead when my time comes so they don't get their hands on me.
  • Have been taking my Aunt to Lewisham for 6 months and the answer in this hospital is NO. They have however asked her to have another X-ray as they lost the last ones. She is 98 and refuses to go back any more.
  • NHS staff are under a extreme amount of pressure. Cheap shots should not be taken.
    Before anyone complains about care, look at why it is in the state it is, and would anyone here place themselves in the shooting gallery for their salary

    I can assure you the service and level of care my aunt received from Lewisham has been a real shock. The last consultant who admitted that her paperwork had gone missing yet again apologised. She was a matron at the Brook in the 50s and 60s and was distressed at how she was treated. One of the biggest shocks was the attitude of those sitting behind the desks. Usually weighing in at 30 stone and totally uncaring as to any perceived problems. Sorry about the wages etc, but people deserve better, especially someone nearing 100. A lot of people do I are but the level of intelligence on the admin and administration side is very low.
  • NHS staff are under a extreme amount of pressure. Cheap shots should not be taken.
    Before anyone complains about care, look at why it is in the state it is, and would anyone here place themselves in the shooting gallery for their salary

    NHS negligence and mendaciousness were a major factor in the death of two of my relatives.

    You may consider that to be a "cheap shot" I do not.

    I hope to God for your sake that your relatives do not suffer similarly. If they do I wonder how magnaminous about our "wonderful NHS" you will be then?

    I only commented on this thread to warn how people can be treated from my own experience as a question had been asked.

    You can take it or leave it that's your choice but DO NOT tell me I'm taking a "cheap shot" after what my family went through!
  • Len, the cases you quote were obviously very distressing and leaving someone on the floor is totally unacceptable.

    How many other times have you experienced good care in hospital though?
  • LenGlover said:

    If a hospital cannot be bothered because the patient is "old" they will simply be devious and lie.

    My father was starved and given nothing to drink. I asked why and was told that he was being prepared for an operation later. Fair enough I thought. However this went on for 3 days with no operation when he then died.

    Liverpool Care Pathway by the back door in other words. It didn't matter what we thought as a family they were going to kill him anyway.

    In the case of my step father they simply left him on the floor all night with a fractured hip after he fell out of bed. He died some days later too.

    Watch your relative like a hawk and trust nobody in hospital.

    I know.

    Having many friends and relatives working in hospitals I find your last comment insulting.
    I understand people, and particularly your examples given have terrible, unforgivable experiences, but to tar all as untrustworthy is not right.
    Heaven forbid it happens Len, but if one of your loved ones had an accident or medical episode, what would you do?
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  • edited August 2014
    LenGlover said:

    This is one where we will have to agree to disagree.

    I can understand those who work for the NHS defending it but I can only speak from my own experience.

    Suffice to say that I hope I drop dead when my time comes so they don't get their hands on me.

    Your experiences were obviously totally unacceptable and indefensible and sincerely hope that you complained?


    However millions of people are given excellent care by the NHS throughout thier life .
    My father had dementia and was afforded excellent care throughout, including a dignified death. My Grandfather died last year with his family surrounding him and the care was superb.

    My father had cancer in 1960 and it was terminal - He was the second person to be treated with Radium in South Eastt Kent ( the machine is in the Science museum!) and he lived to be 85. My Grandfather lived to be 96 and had considerable amount of support and a couple of operations ( aged 93) and was able to live in his own home until a few weeks before he died.

    Your comments are obviously made from justifiable anger, but what you have said slanders every decent Midwife, GP, Health Visitor, Paramedic, Community Nurse, Radiograpther, OT, Doctor and HCW in the country.
  • Sometime, when we walk into a house and there is a little 90 year old lady, frail and seems like she died in her sleep in bed etc, then yes we would have a word with the family about starting resus on the patient. We still need to consider what is in the best interest of the patient. Doing CPR does break ribs, which in turn can cause lots more problems. If we shock people, the pads burn the skin, so sometimes, its better to let them die in bed than spend upto two or three hours doing CPR, dragging them to Hospital and know what the outcome will be. Plus by doing all that, it does tend to give the family false hope that there will be a good positive outcome. I have lost count of the amount of times i have been doing CPR on a patient, knowing whats coming next yet the family are in the background talking about how once they have recovered they can have a nice holiday etc. (obviously its completely different with kids).
  • A few comments so I won't quote anyone in particular but try and answer points raised.

    I did say higher up the thread that I can understand those who work for the NHS will wish to defend it but that I could only speak from my own experience.

    Thus we should agree to disagree. I got involved to make Sadie aware and watchful of what can and does happen to elderly relatives from my own experience. People can take note or ignore as they choose.

    My experiences are by no means unique and if I didn't find just recalling what has happened so upsetting I would google and prove it, even going to the trouble of finding reports in The Guardian, as other, easier to access information, is demeaned on Charlton Life as the "wrong type" of source and thus dismissed.


    However, and I've posted long enough on here that I should have predicted that it would happen, a sanctimonious Charlton Life Twat chose to demean and devalue the horrific circumstances behind the deaths of two of my relatives by describing them as a "cheap shot." Sorry the NHS might be a Sacred Cow that some consider that we are not allowed to criticise but I was not going to stand by and take that.

    Did I complain? No. I wanted to believe me but for complicated reasons (there's a clue in the word "step") I was not the official next of kin in either case. The attitude of the rest of the family in both cases was "complaining won't bring him back" which is obviously an indisputable fact. I thus felt the need to respect the wishes of other family members outweighed my own opinions.

    Both of the deceased put the rest of the family before themselves so in my eyes that was a justifiable position for me to take even though, on days like today when accused of a "cheap shot," I sometimes wish I had complained.

    I had no wish to air my personal circumstances to this extent on here and part of me is tempted to edit my postings from this thread but another part thinks it important to speak out.

    People can make up their own minds.




  • Len,

    I think everyone agrees that what happened in those two instances was unacceptable, but I am sure that the number of patients who receive very good care far outweighs those who dont.

    It is the relative rareness of those instances that grabs the attention, undoing the general good work of the NHS - like eating seafood and then on one occasion falling ill and stating 'seafood doesn't agree with me' (probably not the best example, granted)

    Am I biased? - yes, my wife left banking after 22 years to become a nurse and qualified in March this year at the age of 42 after 4 years of training (and knocking out 2 kids in the process). I see the effort and toll the job takes out of her, doing 12 hour shifts in A&E only to be tarred with the same brush when someone has a bad experience. It is that generalisation that people are taking umbrage at.
  • LenGlover said:

    A few comments so I won't quote anyone in particular but try and answer points raised.

    I did say higher up the thread that I can understand those who work for the NHS will wish to defend it but that I could only speak from my own experience.

    Thus we should agree to disagree. I got involved to make Sadie aware and watchful of what can and does happen to elderly relatives from my own experience. People can take note or ignore as they choose.

    My experiences are by no means unique and if I didn't find just recalling what has happened so upsetting I would google and prove it, even going to the trouble of finding reports in The Guardian, as other, easier to access information, is demeaned on Charlton Life as the "wrong type" of source and thus dismissed.


    However, and I've posted long enough on here that I should have predicted that it would happen, a sanctimonious Charlton Life Twat chose to demean and devalue the horrific circumstances behind the deaths of two of my relatives by describing them as a "cheap shot." Sorry the NHS might be a Sacred Cow that some consider that we are not allowed to criticise but I was not going to stand by and take that.

    Did I complain? No. I wanted to believe me but for complicated reasons (there's a clue in the word "step") I was not the official next of kin in either case. The attitude of the rest of the family in both cases was "complaining won't bring him back" which is obviously an indisputable fact. I thus felt the need to respect the wishes of other family members outweighed my own opinions.

    Both of the deceased put the rest of the family before themselves so in my eyes that was a justifiable position for me to take even though, on days like today when accused of a "cheap shot," I sometimes wish I had complained.

    I had no wish to air my personal circumstances to this extent on here and part of me is tempted to edit my postings from this thread but another part thinks it important to speak out.

    People can make up their own minds.




    Totally inexcusable care period.

    Myself of my family and friends ( including my late father and Grandfather ) worked / do work in the NHS - my eldest daughter has just qualified as a midwife. I guess you are right about feeling a little defensive.

    However I don't think the NHS should be above criticism at all and those who work in are not backward in criticising it believe me! Neither should poor care or staff be tolerated at all - ever.

    The sort of care you have described unfortunately does happen sometimes and should be highlighted and stopped. Most NHS staff do care deeply and would be angry to hear of your relatives experiences and of the awful memories it has left you

    I can really understand why you are angry and think that perhaps we would all feel shades of the same if it was one of our nearest and dearest.





  • Absolutely right! Yes the nhs is a wonderful thing that this country is and should be proud of. Yes we have some excellent doctors and surgeons and we have nurses that work all hours with little pay snd most deserve medals. However, there are some departments in some hospitals that have fallen below the standards that are acceptable, unfortunately most of theses are in A and E, I blame the fact that the government keep closing bloody hospitals and emergency departments leaving remainding ones too stretched for staff and resources. The way @LenGlover‌ father and step father were treated is disgusting and he has the right to be angry. Someone should be held accountable.
  • Bad care can never be excused and it really makes me angry when I hear about it. Why because nothing I can say or do can help or change what has happened. The people responsible are beyond despicable if they were negligent or not caring. No punishment is enough in my view.

    I am very sorry to hear about your experience Len. It makes me feel embarrassed to read about it.

    I can understand fully why you hold your views but let me say that I can be 100% certain that the vast vast majority of Health care workers would feel just as I do and like me take pride in the job they do and the level of care we provide.

    It sickens me to hear the lying politicians telling the people of this country that there have been no cuts to the health service budget. In realty staffing levels and morale are lower than ever before. The NHS is being strangled and many front line services are really not able to cope. Of course the quality will suffer but the care provided should not.

    I will not attempt to bore you with an exact example from my own area but the British public are being led up the garden path.

  • My nan died at approximately 2.15 yesterday afternoon alone. Her partner was with her from 9am yesterday morning and she kept on falling into an unconscious state it they told him to contact the rest of the family to tell them her lungs were too badly damaged snd there is nothing more they can do for her, they then gave her, for the first time during her illness, some morphine to keep her comfortable. She told him she was going to rest now and the hospital told him he may as well go home and get some rest himself as she is probably going to be asleep for a while. My mum, my aunt and uncle arrived at the hospital about 45mins later and walked into the room, said she didn't look right, they then realised her oxygen tube was gone and she wasn't breathing. My mum went outside the room where a doctor was sitting at the nurses station on the phone she said "doctor " he waved her away, she then flagged down a nurse "someone will be with you in a minute" my mum has then "shouted I don't care who comes but someone tell me what's happened to my mum " another nurse came over and said, "she passed a little while ago, okay" and just walked off.

    I am not blaming them for her death, the TB and secondary infection had damaged her lungs too badly and she was a 6 stone skeleton, but whatever happened to showing compassion to relatives? Some pre-warning would have been good or even some sympathy on arrival, when I got there an hour or so later, their were still no nurses offering sympathy, one nurse just abruptly said when we were leaving " make sure you take all of her belongings because we 're taking her to the mortuary" we removed her jewellery and we covered her up, the room was right next to the nurses station and we saw at least half a dozen nurses as we were leaving, not one said "I'm sorry".

    Before anyone says this is not a dig at the NHS, just Queen Elizabeth Hospital ward 14.
  • Sorry to hear about your Nan Sadie.

    My Mum is in 15b at the moment. Some of the care has been good but some the Hospital will be hearing about.
    The sorriest thing that has happened though is some c*nts nicked her glasses.
  • Everything that I believed in re the NHS is being dismantled. I have personally experienced care such as Len describes and for me, it was my father that was mistreated. There are severe problems and there is real trauma and heartache for many families. I also witnessed appalling care for a friend in an emergency care centre in the past two weeks.
    Staff have worked under too much pressure for too long. The entire process dehumanises people and it is important to understand how and why it happens. The NHS has all but disappeared and in its place come greedy people wanting to make a profit. There are many casualties of this privatisation, don't knock people for speaking out, the next hapless victim might be you or a member of your family.
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