Can anyone answer the following questions
Why did Charlton have to abondon the valley?
Who was to blame? was it Mr Fryer?
If charlton had not left the valley, would they have folded?
What options were available at that time other than Selhurst?
And why is so much blame aimed at Noades and CPFC and not the people who running CAFC?
I'd be interested to get the full story, I've read plenty about how Charlton fans hated selhurst and even the journey there, but not much on why this all came to be, other than it started on that September afternoon in 1985 when sheets of A4 were handed out delivering the news.
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In that case i'm delighted Selhurst was such a miserable experience for you!
Without selling the Valley we probably would have gone bankrupt, we were on the verge of being wound up in the high court more than once I believe and there is a story (how true or not I don't know) about a game at Upton where the coach was stuck in traffic and John Bumstead ran over a mile to the ground with the teamsheet as the club couldn't afford the fine for handing it in late.
Personally I think that most of the hatred aimed at Palace should all go to Noades, but it's hard to seperate the two at times. Noades, as ever, saw a business opportunity and went after it in his usual, rather savage, manner.
As said yesterday, it is a dislike largely brewed from association that i am unable to pin one thing on to make it easier for you to understand. Our 'low' was associated with being in the shadow and little brother to Palace and Selhurst, Noades (though you detest him now as well) was simply seen as Palace to us.
Well I'm going to try, this may not be entirely acurate, but it's how it is perceived, by me at least.
Safety certificates required the Valley to undergoe expensive renovations, Fryer/Sunley didn't own the ground so they didn't want to pay out.
Complicated - Glickstien refused to sell the ground to Fryer and Fryer & Co didn't have the balls to or intelligence to sort out the mess and then up popped uncle ron with a solution.
Technically yes, but I remain convinced that something could and would have been arranged, especially with the council as what was needed wasn't exactly earth shatteringly difficult to sort out.
No other options were considered, Fryer and Noades got together and decided that this was the only solution.
Noades saw an opportunity to make money and Fryer wasn't man enough to turn him down. If you question that, just look at uncle ron's recent dealings with you and Brentford. Palarse fans and officials could have welcomed us as West Ham did, they didn't. There was no visible recognition of Charlton at shithurst, save for a small badge and a portacabin and the stewards and police treated us like scum as they had done (and still do), when we were visiting away supporters.
As a supporter having to walk past countless number of stripeys while going to watch EVERY Charlton game at home, giving it large, with no small measure of abuse, about how we were homeless and skint and going down and going bust and how we were paying for their success. How would you react?
Thanks for the reply ( except for the shithurst and Palarse comments) No wonder we call you the clowns!
As has been pointed out Mr Noades does not have many supporters at Palace and even fewer at Brentford! Noades is interviewed in the Palace centenary DVD and he freely admits he was hoping to merge Palace and Charlton........which is an absolute disgrace....the man should be banned from ownership of football clubs.
As for the fans not making you welcome, if the boot was on the other foot would we have been made welcome at the Valley...honestly??
It does seem most Charlton fans want to blame palace for you hardship at Selhurst when the real blame lays with your own people......... but they don't make as good an enemy as Palace.
For the record I think no matter what happened ,that CAFC would not have folded, as there are just too many people who are too passionate about the club to have let it disappear.
Completely agree with the noades comment, although jordan is doing his best to be more universaly hated.
Do you know, and this may sound patronising, but yes I actually think you would have been welcomed. Ok there would have been some piss taking and banter as you would expect, but wholesale abuse and treated like second class citizens, especially from those within our club, almost certainly not. If it were to happen now of course, that might be different.
I think like most of your fans you miss the point. We don't blame you for us getting in the mess in the first place, that is down entirely to messrs noades and fryer. But the reaction to us once we were there, has certainly shaped this supporters view of the inhabitants of a small corner of surrey and no matter how it mellows, possibly always will.
Oh and I forgot to mention the absolute topper to the comments we regularly got thrown at us and still do, 'we should be gratefull to you because you saved us'. Rather than as you have now done, which I applaud you for, to find out the truth behind it all, we were glibly told to shut up and be gratefull!
Going to have to have an asprin and a cup of horlicks to calm down now. ;-)
Meanwhile the Bradford Fire had caused a much needed crack down on health and safety at football grounds and the large 40k capacity east terrace was closed. Glikstien then asked for a part of the ground back making access very difficult. He refused to sell the ground to Sunley's as, by his account, he didn't trust Sunley's as a property development co. not to build on the 10 acre site.
So there was a show down. Sunley/fryer "called Glikstien's bluff" IMHO and decided to ground share. That one of the great advocates of groundsharing Jimmy Hill was also on the board was, again IMHO, a big factor.
However it was not a share. We were 2nd class tenants and we were constantly reminded of that by everyone involved with CPFC including many of their fans.
Noades did want to merge the two clubs and came very close. Then Charlton Manager Lennie Lawrence told me many years ago that if it had not been for a dispute over the ownership of a part of Selhurst next to Sainsbury's it could have gone ahead. Remember that CPFC were in the old div 2 while CAFC were by now in the top flight. Palace's crowds were in four figures (6440 in 84/5) so they were not, whatever you may think SOS, a much bigger club.
As NorthstandSteve has said there was often violence at Selhurst Park games long before the groundshare certainly to my memory going back to the late sixties but I'm not expert on such matters.
For a fuller story of this and the more important Exodus like return to the Valley and the re-affirming of our current and historical status as the number one club in south London read Battle for the Valley by Rick Everitt. (BTW Rick is updating his book and it should be out soon.)
However as was said yesterday CAFC fans don't have to justify their dislike/hatred of Palace to palace fans or anyone else and as long as that doesn't spill over into violence then I will leave them to it.
Palace's fans "hatred" of Brighton only goes back a few years relatively and seems to be based solely on the two teams being involved in some close promotion battles, Malcolm Allison's cigar and some street fighting. That seems a far lesser reason to hate a club compared to having your team raped and your club nearly merged out of existence but that is Palace fan's business not mine.
As for the present and recent comments - No Comment :-)
Good points Henry, except for the one above! As I have never said I think Palace are a bigger Club, I started attending selhurst in 1980 and well remember the days of 6000 crowds at Selhurst in the mid 80's. Infact some one else on here suggested our crowds have dwindeled over recent years, when they have clearly grown!
You just love putting "number one in South London" in your post's don't you henry!
I'll look out for his updated version. Always thought the original version published back in 1991 was missing an ending as it was finished about 18 months before we moved back to The Valley.
I agree. It was written so close to the events. Next time I see RIck I'll ask him when it's coming out.
Whatever does not destroy you makes you stronger
Is that the first time the bastard's owned up to it in public?
I think you've just stumbled across the wording for another banner there Rothko!
;o)
That's the last time we do you a favour! ;-)
I don't blame Palace fans for us moving to Selhurst, that was down to the Glikstens, Fryer and Noades. I do blame them for a lot of the crap that we had to put up with while we were there, including having small chunks of ceramic tile lobbed up at us from the chicken run when we were sitting in the Arthur Waite during derby games (and the stewards doing bog all about it). There was no sympathy for us being dragged across to the other side of London every other week, just glee that our rent was subsidising their own transfer activities. And of course, once the Valley had fallen into utter disrepair, they had us over a barrel. However, I think the icing on the cake was having to sell John Humphrey to them at a knockdown price in order to pay the rent.
With West Ham, the perception is that they genuinely helped us out of a hole, while Palace just took advantage of our predicament for their own benefit. That's why when Noades did to you what he did to us, we had no sympathy, just revelled in the fact that now you had some idea what it felt like. Except loads of your fans still seem to expect us to be grateful for being screwed over. The situation isn't helped by the fact that Simon Jordan is a total twonk though.
The rivalry goes back a long way before the ground share - I mostly remember Allison talking up Palace's chances in the 74/5 promotion race - in the third division when we made it up and you finished 5th (?) the comments were brash, in your face and well, pretty much like Simon Jordan today.
As Henry and others mention the long term decline of Charlton from 1957 to 1979 relegation was mirrored by Palace climbing from Division 4 - so when we levelled out in the 60s and 70s we're all looking for rivals - though I never understand why we don't have it in for West Ham in the same way?
The irony is we should be thankful of the exile because it made us what we are. Palace did take the rise but we came out of it a better club.
Fundamental difference now is that we are going to pull out of a nose dive and win our relegation fight whereas Palace bottle it every time and go down after 1 year ! lol !!!
Charlton are the 'Massives' of SE London......! ;-)
addicked ever since!
The clowns, clowntown, pikeys ...hmmmm. Croydon, Norbury ... Sutton ... exactly!!!!!!!