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Additional Time rules in England -clear as mud

Thankfully I was travelling during Saturday's game, so I didn't have to endure the radio nightmare of 7 minutes extra time, but hearing about it reminded me to mention something I'm now sure about:

English refs are adding on far more extra time than those in other European countries

I've watched probably 15 full Czech and German games (Live or TV) in the last year, some of them European ties, and the maximum extra time I can remember is 3 minutes. In one first half involving Viktoria in the Europa League, the ref didn't add any at all. I thought at first the TV counter had stopped working, so amazed was I to see it.

Now I am surprised at this because I would have thought that FIFA would have some kind of global guidelines for this; in which case there should be no good reason why there is more time added on in England. And if the FA are playing to their own rules, what happens when an English ref takes a European tie?

Of course, even if we are doing it differently to the rest of Europe I don't assume that means we are doing it worse. Of course if we are chasing a game, we dont want the other team to get away with blatant timewasting. The problem is, we just don't know, and I think we should know. Both what guidelines the ref is using, and more particularly, what he is actually adding. What I find really galling is that the electronic clocks in grounds are not permitted to carry on recording the time added on. Don't we have a right to monitor this? We are paying for the whole thing, after all.

Several times I have heard it said that our refs are adding on 30 seconds per substitution. Is this official, or not? If so, it clearly isn't happening across Europe with any uniformity. Recipe for trouble in Euro ties.

There ought to be transparency on this, and it wouldn't be difficult. The fourth official should be responsible for time added on, and his stopwatch should be wired to the stadium clock. When his watch stops, so does the stadium clock. Just like in ice hockey, in fact...
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Comments

  • Interesting. On that note has anyone noticed the seemingly increasing amount of first halves with NO extra time? How can that even be possible? Unless the ball stays in play for 45 minutes there's gonna be a few seconds at least.
  • Well you rarely have subs in the first half and you don't add time for the ball not being in play, that's all part of the game. You only add time for prolonged stoppages like injuries etc.
  • Extract from Laws of the Game (Law 5): Hope this is helpful

    Allowance is made in either period for all time lost through:

    •substitutions
    •assessment of injury to players
    •removal of injured players from the field of play for treatment
    •wasting time
    •any other cause


    The allowance for time lost is at the discretion of the referee.
  • Oops - meant Law 7
  • PeterGage said:

    Oops - meant Law 7

    don't worry ...I don't think anyone noticed ;-)
  • @PeterGage

    "The allowance for time lost is at the discretion of the referee."

    And that, I think, is the problem.
  • Whose discretion should it be, other than the referee or Sir Alex ???
  • Whilst I sort of know what Pragueaddick is getting at, I think leaving the time keeping to the 4th official would be a disaster with both dugouts in his ear at every given opportunity.
    What would probably work better is an official in the stand micced up to the ref keeping time. Then the ref can use his discretion if he thinks people are time wasting and inform the official who would be monitoring injuries, substitutions and other prolonged stops in play.
  • Whilst I sort of know what Pragueaddick is getting at, I think leaving the time keeping to the 4th official would be a disaster with both dugouts in his ear at every given opportunity.
    What would probably work better is an official in the stand micced up to the ref keeping time. Then the ref can use his discretion if he thinks people are time wasting and inform the official who would be monitoring injuries, substitutions and other prolonged stops in play.

    Talk about how many reffs does it take to ref a game of football?!
  • Would this be a ridiculous idea (please tell me if it is):

    We do what they do in rugby league (I think?), and stop the clock every time the ball goes dead. No need to worry about added time, and we get rid of timewasting.

    Obviously we couldn't do this at every level of football.
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  • PeterGage said:

    Whose discretion should it be, other than the referee or Sir Alex ???

    My point is that we should all be able to see, in real time, exactly what added time is being applied. Then fans won't say, as they did on Saturday " I dunno where he got six minutes from"
  • @PeterGage

    "The allowance for time lost is at the discretion of the referee."

    And that, I think, is the problem.

    Why's it a problem Prague?

    I must admit, I quite like the unpredictability of referees, adds seasoning to the flavour of the game. Kelvin Morton's classic at Southend (Gatting and Walsh sent off, Curbishley sent to the stands), Mike Dean's evening up of Brown's sending off, that crazy Colchester game when Darren Sheldrake ruled the goal was then wasn't then was again. And of course the sheer panic when the board reads 5 at the end of a game all adds to the drama.

    For me we can have referees being consistent, we can have referees 'managing the game', but they are to my mind mutually exclusive. Personally I think robot referees are the worst of all, and Mike Riley's running of the pro referees has led to an increase in this kind of approach.

    I heard Mark Halsey comment recently that the assessors mark only on the technical side of the game, then send their numbers off to the USA for 'analysis', upon which the future of a referee's elite career depends. He tells a story of how both managers once highly commended a referee in their own reports, only for the poor guy to be demoted to the FL for the next 4 games because his assessor's score was too low.

    I'd take inconsistency and a well-managed game over referees like Graham Poll and Rob Styles any day of the week. If they add on 7 minutes, power to their elbow - there was a lot more time wasted during the game than 7 minutes.
  • Rich

    I don't trust referees with all this discretion. There are too many occasions where people are baffled as to where all the time came from. I'm just asking for transparency. Fine if one ref is harsher on time wasting than another. Lets just be able to see it. When he stops the watch, so the stadium clock stops too. When did you last see the ref blow for full time instantly after a corner is taken? Funny that, eh? Not funny at all if its us defending a one goal lead, and the ref adds a few seconds just to see what happens. And tell me, why isn't the stadium clock allowed to run as long as the game does?
  • Prague,

    I agree we need more openness.

    The simple way to do this is for refs to be questioned after the game as to why they gave certain decisions.

    I am against any sort of witch hunt, but after a period of time, supporters and those that play football for fun would have a greater understanding as to what refs are looking and would help football drive forward the behaviors they are looking for.

    I must also confess to being a supporter who sees what I want to see at a match and when I see the replay - the ref has been invariably right! I actually feel sorry for them. Not only do the players, supporters and the crowd give them stick, they have their own assessors who seem to be there to criticize and not support. Perhaps it should be these assessors who should appear after the game and explain it all.
  • In the bundesliga refs rarely, if ever, add on more than 2 minutes at the end of the 90
  • Refs do not "add" time on. A few minutes from the end of each half they think of a number and tell the 4th official to display it.
  • Hex said:

    Refs do not "add" time on. A few minutes from the end of each half they think of a number and tell the 4th official to display it.

    With all they have to do you are probably right. Perhaps the 4th offical should keep the time and not just the peace!
  • Would this be a ridiculous idea (please tell me if it is):

    We do what they do in rugby league (I think?), and stop the clock every time the ball goes dead. No need to worry about added time, and we get rid of timewasting.

    Obviously we couldn't do this at every level of football.

    If time was stopped every time play did games would last a long time, I did some work in the 90's on premier league games and you were getting around 50-60 minutes of actual play in the 90. So I imagine most 3pm games would end up finishing at nearly 6pm and live tv coverage would be a nightmare for broadcasters.
  • So time isn't added on every time the ball goes out of play? I genuinely never knew that. So games are not truly 90 minutes then...
  • In the bundesliga refs rarely, if ever, add on more than 2 minutes at the end of the 90

    Right, so its not just me. At the very least then, we know the refs there are operating to different rules. That in itself is surprising. If Howard Webb refs a Dortmund game in in the UCL, which "rules" on extra time does he follow, his usual English one, or the German one? If you were a Dortmund fan, you might think that question is pretty damn important.

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  • The other part of the additional time rule is that refs should blow up on exactly the number of minutes they told the 4th official. This rule is applied by most refs in this country and almost always applied by refs elsewhere. Its one of the reasons they don't want you to see the clock after the 45/90mins and also why time-wasting is very 'productive' during additional time.
  • One stupid thing that has always nagged me. In the old days a ref would just stop his watch. This means you could have 2 minutes 20 seconds added on. So what does a ref say now - why does it have to be an exact number of minutes. Would he say 3? it doesn't sound right either way. I cannot understand the logic of the way they do it now.
    Can some-one explain
  • Hex said:

    The other part of the additional time rule is that refs should blow up on exactly the number of minutes they told the 4th official. This rule is applied by most refs in this country and almost always applied by refs elsewhere. Its one of the reasons they don't want you to see the clock after the 45/90mins and also why time-wasting is very 'productive' during additional time.

    Is that the official rule? I understood that they are always careful to say "the fourth official has indicated that a minimum of x minutes will be played" so as to allow for even more extra time in injury time. Which some reports said happened at Blackburn (announced 6, but played 7)

  • You might get low ones in Germany, but the highest I have heard was at Tonbridge v Bromley in the FA Cup where the ref was injured and the fourth official announced a minimum of 23 minutes additional time.
  • Hex said:

    The other part of the additional time rule is that refs should blow up on exactly the number of minutes they told the 4th official. This rule is applied by most refs in this country and almost always applied by refs elsewhere. Its one of the reasons they don't want you to see the clock after the 45/90mins and also why time-wasting is very 'productive' during additional time.

    Is that the official rule? I understood that they are always careful to say "the fourth official has indicated that a minimum of x minutes will be played" so as to allow for even more extra time in injury time. Which some reports said happened at Blackburn (announced 6, but played 7)

    No, its not official but you watch televised matches and see what happens. The ref, especially in european and world matches will almost inevitable blow up dead on or within a few seconds of the added time. It can't be a coincidence! They have never announced it because questions would be asked (they have probably marked your card already!) and the PA announcement is just a smokescreen.
  • Well now I am even more confused than when I started the thread!
  • the way we do it in England on the most part seems the fairest. time wasting is a part of the game I can't stand, even when we do it.
    Many people see the premier league as the most exciting in the world (of the top leagues played on tv) and I think some of that excitement comes from the additional time that can be added and using it as a minimum rather than it has to end the exact time that the fourth official put up.
    And for us in this country it makes the lower leagues as interesting. last season for the end of the Brentford v Doncaster game where a penalty was missed and they went up the other end and scored. in Europe they would never of had that chance.
    grand stand finishes wouldn't exist if there wasn't that extra time and the possibility of even more time on top of that. a team 4 -2 down scores in the 89min to make it 4-3 then a European ref would end it there.
    Plenty of games for each team including us have been won and lost during those last few minutes. It's one of the reasons why this is the best game in the world.
  • edited October 2013

    Rich

    I don't trust referees with all this discretion. There are too many occasions where people are baffled as to where all the time came from. I'm just asking for transparency. Fine if one ref is harsher on time wasting than another. Lets just be able to see it. When he stops the watch, so the stadium clock stops too. When did you last see the ref blow for full time instantly after a corner is taken? Funny that, eh? Not funny at all if its us defending a one goal lead, and the ref adds a few seconds just to see what happens. And tell me, why isn't the stadium clock allowed to run as long as the game does?

    I genuinely think there are two types of referee. You get your Mark Halsey, Howard Webb, Andre Marriner - and dare I say it Keith Hill who reffed the Blackpool game - who seem to have an empathy for the game. Then you get your Graham Poll, Graeme Barber, Alan Wiley, Mike Riley types who see the rules as being more important than the game. Think Roger Milford v Clive Thomas if you like. It's the latter that tend to think themselves as stars of the show, whereas those who get it are happy to fade into the background. Those I agree could not be trusted with discretion - but this is the product of the system Riley has developed.

    Another example. Before his rise to the Premiership, Uriah Rennie was one of the best referees I ever saw. He would rather stand between two players who were about to lose it than get his red card out because they'd been allowed to hit each other. Then he was elevated to the land ruled by the officious, and he lost it completely before fading out of the game back in the lower leagues. I've seen Howard Webb manhandle a player away from an explosive situation too.

    Halsey wrote about Stuart Attwell in his book, in glowing terms of his potential but blaming Mike Riley and his cronies for the referee he became - one who could award a goal that never was and make such a liturgy of errors he's now widely seen as an idiot. Elevated too quickly, not supported, I have a feeling it was he who Halsey was referring to when he made his comment about the difference between the managers' views and the assessor's.

    There is a fundamental problem with refereeing in this country, it's not necessarily better on the continent, but I think the English game suits the vagaries of a referee who understands the game and referees with empathy to it. Don't we all feel that they should be a little more patient with their cards in derby matches, where the emotion runs a little higher?

    I also feel that referees should be allowed to talk to the press after the game to explain their decisions. They will sometimes get things wrong, and that's ok I think. That they're not allowed to admit they're not perfect is a bigger problem for me. Perhaps this is all for another thread one day.

    As for time keeping, please let's not go down the line of demanding to know exactly when the game ends. We never have. We never used to even know how much time the referee was adding on. I do agree about the clock incidentally, quite why it's not allowed to run on I've no idea - it's not as if we don't have watches, as if it's some secret they want to keep - but if they're prepared to indicate roughly how much time is being added on, let's not get on their backs about an extra few seconds. Their job's hard enough with the extraordinary amount of player cheating going on.

    EDIT: Just to add that I think Gurnham Singh was the best referee I ever saw, and it was criminal he never got the chance at the top level - but then perhaps he was all the better for it.
  • Actually, Roger Milford really did think he was the star of the show - but as an entertainer rather than a military enforcer. Loved him, remember him trying to get the crowd going at a corner at the Valley in the early 80s.
  • edited October 2013
    Prague, there's a rough explanation from the BBC here following Arsenal's last minute win at Reading last year.

    In a nutshell, they add on the rough time a physio is on the pitch, 30 seconds for a sub, would normally add 30 seconds for a goal (depending on celebration time). Time wasting and bookings would be thrown into the mix as well. It's an art rather than a science, it's all discretionary - it has to be - and of course delays in injury time would also be added on.

    I think sometimes we forget that if the referee adds on 4 minutes, those 4 minutes should be played - if there's a minute delay within that time, the ref would still play 4 minutes but the game won't end until 5 are up.

    One interesting point is that any change in the system would have to demonstrate a significant improvement over now - and I think that would be difficult to do.
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