This was one of the worst disasters at a Football Staduim in this country but am I alone in thinking that it was an accident. Sure the policing was inept, there was little if no crowd control and the penning in of fans, basically treating them like animals ultimately led to 96 people being crushed to death. But I don't believe that anyone got up that day with the intention to make this thing happen, those involved have to live with the results of that day so I personally see no point in yet another witch hunt to try and pin blame.
The best legacy of Hillsborough is that it got rid of the railings that seperated the crowd from the pitch that was always a disaster waiting to happen. Sorry if this seems harsh I mean no disrespect I just can't see what is being looked for in another documentry/enquiry
Aren't the police dosuments to be released this week? I would have thought a docummentary would have made more sense to be made after that information has become public.
This was one of the worst disasters at a Football Staduim in this country but am I alone in thinking that it was an accident. Sure the policing was inept, there was little if no crowd control and the penning in of fans, basically treating them like animals ultimately led to 96 people being crushed to death. But I don't believe that anyone got up that day with the intention to make this thing happen, those involved have to live with the results of that day so I personally see no point in yet another witch hunt to try and pin blame.
The best legacy of Hillsborough is that it got rid of the railings that seperated the crowd from the pitch that was always a disaster waiting to happen. Sorry if this seems harsh I mean no disrespect I just can't see what is being looked for in another documentry/enquiry
Of course nobody got up that day intending for it to happen but a great tragedy did happen and lots of false accusations wee made for whatever reason. People should be interested in the truth.
The truth won't bring anyone back. I can't help but think that the cost of all the enquiries could have been better spent giving those that lost someone some help (not just financial).
I also worry that the continual chase for someone to blame is, ultimately, motivated by lawyers that believe "If there's blame, there's a claim!".
I watched the 1996 program a couple of months ago, and it was very interesting to use it to understand what actually happened that day, but it was made from a specific point of view and was probably biased for that reason. It covered the grief that some of the families suffered. It was very heart moving, but I have to say that having watched my wife recover emotionally from losing her 11 year old sister and then her 19 year old brother within three years of each other I think there is an argument that the pain is irrespective as to the reason for the loss. With this in mind I just don't see how focusing anger towards someone (that may or may nor have contributed to the outcome) can help.
I noted that there was a fuss when the club moved the image of the Hillsborough tragedy from the team badge to the back of the new shirts earlier in the summer. I know it was a terrible thing that happened, and I can't begin to imagine how terrible it must have been (I have some experience as I answered the phone at 2am when my father-in-law called to tell his daughter that her brother had died in a car accident) but there comes a point when one has to stop being angry, and stop looking for someone to punish.
I agree with daveaddick, it was a tragedy, the behaviour of the fans was probably not perfect, the decisions made by the police were not ideal but I just don't believe that those involved could have foreseen what unfolded, and they did the best they could under the circumstances. I have no comment about the reporting of The Sun and other papers after the event, but even if their claims that fans were stealing from the bodies of the dead were completely made up, it doesn't change the fact the disaster happened long before any of those events could have done. The anger about these things was probably driven from the grief, which came about, I believe, from a succession of, well intentioned, bad decisions.
Has anyone read the book 'Hilsborough The Truth'. It would appear from reading it, that there were lots of past warnings, both long before it happened and very shortly. You can't help but feel the authorities just assumed 'it will always be okay', but as we know, it wasnt.
I can't begin to judge whether those persuing justice/the truth are right or wrong in doing so, as I can't begin to imagine what they went through.
Not many things bring tears to my eyes, but reading accounts from those there and seeing the pics, never fails too, because as a match-going football fan you can relate.
In Moldova Fri night, there was a crush getting in, as they move 10k fans through one entrance. It was the worst one I've experienced and that sudden panic is horrible to feel, even though it was short lived and probably minor in realtion to most. A horrible way to go.
No one should go to a football game and not come home!!
But as has been said - those involved/possibly to blame, have to live with that for the rest of their lives - there can surely be no greater 'punishment' for an individual.
having watch a few documentaries, seen the "film" with Chris Ecclestone and having been to many football matches in the 80's I will say that there is blame on all sides:
1) with the FA as Liverpool fans should have had the other end 2) with Liverpool fans as many turned up drunk & without tickets (yes, it is true) 3) with the police for treating football fans as holigans and not as paying members of the publec (it sill happens today) 4) with football clubs for not updating facilities and having stadiums that were dangerous (fencing etc)
I worked the turnstiles at Charlton (Selhurst) and Millwall 86 to 89 - plenty of scum bags trying to intimidate a young lad into a free ticket and quite a few offering a few quid to jump the turnstiles.
Liverpool away at Millwall midweek in that period was the worst I came across. At least twice as many Liverpool in the end that actually paid.
The thing here is you cannot overlook people going to a football match and not coming back. Same as Bradford.
Blame doesn't bring anyone back, offer closure maybe, and if I lost a loved one that day I would not want to believe it was the fault of other football fans either. Nor would it make me feel any better being told it was the fault of a four metre high fence or the local constabulary.
having watch a few documentaries, seen the "film" with Chris Ecclestone and having been to many football matches in the 80's I will say that there is blame on all sides:
1) with the FA as Liverpool fans should have had the other end 2) with Liverpool fans as many turned up drunk & without tickets (yes, it is true) 3) with the police for treating football fans as holigans and not as paying members of the publec (it sill happens today) 4) with football clubs for not updating facilities and having stadiums that were dangerous (fencing etc)
No 2 - Unfortunatley and rightly or wrongly people turn up without tickets and drunk to lots of sporting (and music) events. Always have done, always will. Its part of the passion which drives football fans, that desire to be there. The England end in Moldova was overfull Fri night.
It is the job of the police to control a crowd. I think reason number two was not a significant one.
The police did not do their their homework and were sadly complacent. The whole police attitude was crowd control, rather than crowd safety.
Agree with all your other points though.
I don't blame any individuals but the WYP collectively and the whole footballing authority ethos and attitude to supporters back then.
Having just watched the documentary I have to say I feel a little cheated. I don't think I learned anything I didn't already know. Sure they had some different people comment on what we had all heard before, but there was nothing new.
The BBC coverage from the stadium provided vivd memories of watching it live. It really was a terrible tragedy.
As far as I know the poor people who died that day were all at the front of the terrace. I imagine they all arrived early and took up their chosen place.
Perhaps the several thousand people running onto the terrace behind them might have contributed. The police might have asked them to walk slowly but I imagine they didn't hear and just ran to get the best view they could. From personal experience I am not sure they all had tickets.
And no, I wasn't there and didn't see what happened.
having watch a few documentaries, seen the "film" with Chris Ecclestone and having been to many football matches in the 80's I will say that there is blame on all sides:
1) with the FA as Liverpool fans should have had the other end 2) with Liverpool fans as many turned up drunk & without tickets (yes, it is true) 3) with the police for treating football fans as holigans and not as paying members of the publec (it sill happens today) 4) with football clubs for not updating facilities and having stadiums that were dangerous (fencing etc)
No 2 - Unfortunatley and rightly or wrongly people turn up without tickets and drunk to lots of sporting (and music) events. Always have done, always will. Its part of the passion which drives football fans, that desire to be there. The England end in Moldova was overfull Fri night.
It is the job of the police to control a crowd. I think reason number two was not a significant one.
The police did not do their their homework and were sadly complacent. The whole police attitude was crowd control, rather than crowd safety.
Agree with all your other points though.
I don't blame any individuals but the WYP collectively and the whole footballing authority ethos and attitude to supporters back then.
I don't want to be pedantic, but Sheffield is the South Yorkshire Police.
But how were they supposed to know they were contributing to the crush that was killing their fellow fans? The police are responsible for controlling and the safety of the crowd. There were two half empty pens to the sides that fans should have been directed too, rather than the central ones.
Disaster had already happened at grounds in Britian and come close to happening before - there was an ignored precedent, which I know is easy to say in hindsight.
Just seen it on ITV1+1 and my opinion has not changed. South Yorkshire Police are are totally to blame for letting so many Liverpool Supporters without tickets into the areas behind the turnstile area of Leppings Lane, which resulted in a crush, which resulted in the exit gates being opened that led to the tragedy. Huge numbers of fans were always going to turn up without tickets and they can never be to blame. South Yorkshire Police failed to recognise this and failed to put in the messures they put in the year before.
Hang on a minute - so its the old bill's fault that a load of mickeys turned up without a ticket? Do me a favour. Yes, south yorks plod didn't act perfectly, but would it have happened if tons of scousers hadnt turn up without a ticket? Absolute tragedy but scousers need to look at their own before looking for someone else to blame.
Agree with Boom, SYP made mistakes in being under prepared and the cover up after the event, but it cannot be balmed on them that thousands turned up without a ticket and saw an opportunity to get into the stadium thus causing the horrible event.
Yep, this was the only time tens of thousands turned up without a ticket, hence the only major disaster to happen.
Some people really should look at the Taylor report before commenting. Ticket less fans was deemed a factor but not a significant one. It wouldn't have happened if there were no pen structures.
I remember as a 13 year old boy getting caught in a crush at Charlton Sation after we beat Spurs 4-1. It was terrifying as the force was immense and you couldn't do anything -the volume of people collectively was much too powerful. I hate to think what might have happened had the doors not been opened to let us onto the platform. It is difficult to imagine just how much force/power a crowd of people have. I honestly thought that this was it.
I think those at the back of the crush have little insight as to what it is like for those at the front and the cause was the desire to catch a train that was on the platform - you can't blame them - it has to be the responsibility of those managing the crowd to cover the threat. At Hillsborough, the motivation was to see a semi final which was reasonable enough - most of us would have done the same if we had no idea on what effect we were having - there were just too many people in a confined area through the fault of the police chief- a simple thing could have been done like delaying the kick off - which would have prevented the urgency to get in. Having said all that, the decision had to be made under pressure and there was a threat of death which was a reason for the decision to be made.
It was the wrong decision and as a result men, women and children lost their lives. The police chief wans't a murderer, but showed a level of incompetence that required some punishment - demotion for instance. If you are in such a responsible position, you have to be able to deal with these situations and not panic. But what happened afterwards was a disgrace - rather than take the blame - the police and the establishment tried to balme the fans and lies were told. That is why this is still important as even now - people are saying - well the fans were a little to blame. That disrespects the dead IMO.
Who was to blame? - Sheff Wednesday for having an unsafe ground and the Police Chief for panicking and making a stupid and reckless decision. Should we forget about it - no - we should try to learn from it to ensure it never happens again.
I'm with Boom on this one, yes the police aren't without blame, but scousers will blame anyone but themselves...how is it the police's fault they all decided to turn up ticketless and pissed ?
The programme outlined that the person who was supposed to be in charge was inexperienced to deal with the kind of crowd control required for a semi final of football. It was also made clear that fans at the semi final the season before had been dealt with, and controlled, to a level where there were no problems and thus meant that there was a feeling that everything should be fine this time around.
There were obviously many factors for the disaster but there is no doubt the action and response from those in charge of the police was poor. The cover ups after the disaster to me spoke volumes that they wanted to divert the blame which inevitably was going to come their way.
Just watched the documentary on ITVplayer. The most telling point for me was that the previous year, which I hadn't realized until now, Liverpool played Forest, at Hillsborough in a FAC semi final and there was not a problem. The difference being that the police constable at the time had set up various checkpoints turning ticketless fans back before they got close to the ground. In '89 the did not have the same process.
How anyone can blame the Liverpool fans for the tragedy is beyond me and in my opinion shows a lack of respect for fellow football supporters not much different to us.
There was a life threatening situation outside the ground and fans were getting crushed. The police made a, with the benefit of hindsight, incorrect decision to relieve the crush by opening the side gates. They did not intend for 96 people to die and who is to know if they had not opened the gate, how many people would have been killed in the crush outside the ground.
The police were wrong to try and cover up there mistakes directly after the disaster. The Sun was disgusting to make up the allegations against they did against the Scousers. I can't blame the relatives for still trying to get to the truth all these years on, if I had lost someone close to me in a disaster such as this, I would not just "get over it". I would want the truth and an apology.
That's all the truth you're ever going to get I think.
As for an apology, they simply don't happen any more. Even when your bank seriously screws up, they credit your account, but they'll never say sorry. Saying sorry is admitting fault and opens you up to lawsuits, so Sheffield Weds and SYP will never apologise as it would be the same as admitting criminal liability for those deaths.
I fear the campaign will never end until a suitable scapegoat is found. I guess it's only human nature, to want one target of your grieve, to have a simple "it was this guys fault", but live isn't that simple. As stated above, in various documentaries and official reports, there were many contributing factors.
And like it or not, fans turning up without tickets, and pushing their way in are at fault. Obviously nobody ever means to cause harm, but not considering the possible consequences of your actions is never an excuse if/when the worst happens. Consider this, you are at the back of a crowd, and pushing the big lump in front of you, where does that force go? Would you push as hard if it was a small child or somebody frail? Well those people will be in the crowd somewhere, and all that force is going to get passed onto to those vulnerable people. Relying on someone else to mitigate the results of your own poor decisions is never ever a good idea. So whilst the police should have done better, they wouldn't have needed to if those without tickets hadn't been there, and excuses like "it happened all the time", "loads of people do it", "there was never a problem before", seem particularly weak in the face of 96 entirely avoidable deaths.
Just watched the documentary on ITVplayer. The most telling point for me was that the previous year, which I hadn't realized until now, Liverpool played Forest, at Hillsborough in a FAC semi final and there was not a problem. The difference being that the police constable at the time had set up various checkpoints turning ticketless fans back before they got close to the ground. In '89 the did not have the same process.
How anyone can blame the Liverpool fans for the tragedy is beyond me and in my opinion shows a lack of respect for fellow football supporters not much different to us.
There was a life threatening situation outside the ground and fans were getting crushed. The police made a, with the benefit of hindsight, incorrect decision to relieve the crush by opening the side gates. They did not intend for 96 people to die and who is to know if they had not opened the gate, how many people would have been killed in the crush outside the ground.
The police were wrong to try and cover up there mistakes directly after the disaster. The Sun was disgusting to make up the allegations against they did against the Scousers. I can't blame the relatives for still trying to get to the truth all these years on, if I had lost someone close to me in a disaster such as this, I would not just "get over it". I would want the truth and an apology.
RIP the 96.
They're hardly blameless, to pin this all on the SYP is ridiculous.
It was tragic accident no one person went to the game or organised and intended to cause the death of 96 people police, fans and authorities included. Sometimes all we can do to honour the dead is to learn from our collective mistakes.
Point 1 - there was an extremely large amount of ticketless fans that led to a crush outside the ground. Point 2 - SYP opened the gate in order to alleviate said crush. Point 3 - these first two points led to the crush within the ground.
In conclusion neither party is blameless and both most bear responsibility and own up to the fact that they partly caused these deaths.
Has it ever been proved how many ticketless fans were outside/inside etc??
Or are they just claims/assumptions?
You telling me that massive amount of fans that surged in when the gates were opened had tickets? Trust me I know plenty of Liverpool fans that still turn up ticketless to this day .
I'm with Boom on this one, yes the police aren't without blame, but scousers will blame anyone but themselves...how is it the police's fault they all decided to turn up ticketless and pissed ?
What's it matter if they had a drink? Our away end if often full of pissed people. Football fans were 'scum' back then and accusations like that with no evidence were always gona be thrown at the fans to attempt to lay the blame at their feet.
Never went robbing throughout europe did they? Never turned up at matches without tickets did they? It was all Chelsea/Charlton/Millwall/West Ham at Heysel wasn't it?
It wasn't caused by overcrowding in the away end but overcrowding within one pen. If there were no ticketless fans the disaster still could have happened.
Comments
The best legacy of Hillsborough is that it got rid of the railings that seperated the crowd from the pitch that was always a disaster waiting to happen. Sorry if this seems harsh I mean no disrespect I just can't see what is being looked for in another documentry/enquiry
This Alan Davies?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2127339/Alan-Davies-causes-outrage-criticism-Liverpool-dodging-Hillsborough-date.html
The BBC had a programme about Hillsborough last night.
I also worry that the continual chase for someone to blame is, ultimately, motivated by lawyers that believe "If there's blame, there's a claim!".
I watched the 1996 program a couple of months ago, and it was very interesting to use it to understand what actually happened that day, but it was made from a specific point of view and was probably biased for that reason. It covered the grief that some of the families suffered. It was very heart moving, but I have to say that having watched my wife recover emotionally from losing her 11 year old sister and then her 19 year old brother within three years of each other I think there is an argument that the pain is irrespective as to the reason for the loss. With this in mind I just don't see how focusing anger towards someone (that may or may nor have contributed to the outcome) can help.
I noted that there was a fuss when the club moved the image of the Hillsborough tragedy from the team badge to the back of the new shirts earlier in the summer. I know it was a terrible thing that happened, and I can't begin to imagine how terrible it must have been (I have some experience as I answered the phone at 2am when my father-in-law called to tell his daughter that her brother had died in a car accident) but there comes a point when one has to stop being angry, and stop looking for someone to punish.
I agree with daveaddick, it was a tragedy, the behaviour of the fans was probably not perfect, the decisions made by the police were not ideal but I just don't believe that those involved could have foreseen what unfolded, and they did the best they could under the circumstances. I have no comment about the reporting of The Sun and other papers after the event, but even if their claims that fans were stealing from the bodies of the dead were completely made up, it doesn't change the fact the disaster happened long before any of those events could have done. The anger about these things was probably driven from the grief, which came about, I believe, from a succession of, well intentioned, bad decisions.
It would appear from reading it, that there were lots of past warnings, both long before it happened and very shortly.
You can't help but feel the authorities just assumed 'it will always be okay', but as we know, it wasnt.
I can't begin to judge whether those persuing justice/the truth are right or wrong in doing so, as I can't begin to imagine what they went through.
Not many things bring tears to my eyes, but reading accounts from those there and seeing the pics, never fails too, because as a match-going football fan you can relate.
In Moldova Fri night, there was a crush getting in, as they move 10k fans through one entrance. It was the worst one I've experienced and that sudden panic is horrible to feel, even though it was short lived and probably minor in realtion to most. A horrible way to go.
No one should go to a football game and not come home!!
1) with the FA as Liverpool fans should have had the other end
2) with Liverpool fans as many turned up drunk & without tickets (yes, it is true)
3) with the police for treating football fans as holigans and not as paying members of the publec (it sill happens today)
4) with football clubs for not updating facilities and having stadiums that were dangerous (fencing etc)
I worked the turnstiles at Charlton (Selhurst) and Millwall 86 to 89 - plenty of scum bags trying to intimidate a young lad into a free ticket and quite a few offering a few quid to jump the turnstiles.
Liverpool away at Millwall midweek in that period was the worst I came across. At least twice as many Liverpool in the end that actually paid.
Cheeky fun loving Scousers !
Blame doesn't bring anyone back, offer closure maybe, and if I lost a loved one that day I would not want to believe it was the fault of other football fans either. Nor would it make me feel any better being told it was the fault of a four metre high fence or the local constabulary.
Doesn't make it right what they printed mind you
Try sharing some blame and you will be more credible
It is the job of the police to control a crowd. I think reason number two was not a significant one.
The police did not do their their homework and were sadly complacent. The whole police attitude was crowd control, rather than crowd safety.
Agree with all your other points though.
I don't blame any individuals but the WYP collectively and the whole footballing authority ethos and attitude to supporters back then.
The BBC coverage from the stadium provided vivd memories of watching it live. It really was a terrible tragedy.
Perhaps the several thousand people running onto the terrace behind them might have contributed. The police might have asked them to walk slowly but I imagine they didn't hear and just ran to get the best view they could. From personal experience I am not sure they all had tickets.
And no, I wasn't there and didn't see what happened.
The police are responsible for controlling and the safety of the crowd. There were two half empty pens to the sides that fans should have been directed too, rather than the central ones.
Disaster had already happened at grounds in Britian and come close to happening before - there was an ignored precedent, which I know is easy to say in hindsight.
JUSTICE FOR THE 96!
Some people really should look at the Taylor report before commenting. Ticket less fans was deemed a factor but not a significant one. It wouldn't have happened if there were no pen structures.
I think those at the back of the crush have little insight as to what it is like for those at the front and the cause was the desire to catch a train that was on the platform - you can't blame them - it has to be the responsibility of those managing the crowd to cover the threat. At Hillsborough, the motivation was to see a semi final which was reasonable enough - most of us would have done the same if we had no idea on what effect we were having - there were just too many people in a confined area through the fault of the police chief- a simple thing could have been done like delaying the kick off - which would have prevented the urgency to get in. Having said all that, the decision had to be made under pressure and there was a threat of death which was a reason for the decision to be made.
It was the wrong decision and as a result men, women and children lost their lives. The police chief wans't a murderer, but showed a level of incompetence that required some punishment - demotion for instance. If you are in such a responsible position, you have to be able to deal with these situations and not panic. But what happened afterwards was a disgrace - rather than take the blame - the police and the establishment tried to balme the fans and lies were told. That is why this is still important as even now - people are saying - well the fans were a little to blame. That disrespects the dead IMO.
Who was to blame? - Sheff Wednesday for having an unsafe ground and the Police Chief for panicking and making a stupid and reckless decision. Should we forget about it - no - we should try to learn from it to ensure it never happens again.
The programme outlined that the person who was supposed to be in charge was inexperienced to deal with the kind of crowd control required for a semi final of football. It was also made clear that fans at the semi final the season before had been dealt with, and controlled, to a level where there were no problems and thus meant that there was a feeling that everything should be fine this time around.
There were obviously many factors for the disaster but there is no doubt the action and response from those in charge of the police was poor. The cover ups after the disaster to me spoke volumes that they wanted to divert the blame which inevitably was going to come their way.
How anyone can blame the Liverpool fans for the tragedy is beyond me and in my opinion shows a lack of respect for fellow football supporters not much different to us.
There was a life threatening situation outside the ground and fans were getting crushed. The police made a, with the benefit of hindsight, incorrect decision to relieve the crush by opening the side gates. They did not intend for 96 people to die and who is to know if they had not opened the gate, how many people would have been killed in the crush outside the ground.
The police were wrong to try and cover up there mistakes directly after the disaster. The Sun was disgusting to make up the allegations against they did against the Scousers. I can't blame the relatives for still trying to get to the truth all these years on, if I had lost someone close to me in a disaster such as this, I would not just "get over it". I would want the truth and an apology.
RIP the 96.
As for an apology, they simply don't happen any more. Even when your bank seriously screws up, they credit your account, but they'll never say sorry. Saying sorry is admitting fault and opens you up to lawsuits, so Sheffield Weds and SYP will never apologise as it would be the same as admitting criminal liability for those deaths.
I fear the campaign will never end until a suitable scapegoat is found. I guess it's only human nature, to want one target of your grieve, to have a simple "it was this guys fault", but live isn't that simple. As stated above, in various documentaries and official reports, there were many contributing factors.
And like it or not, fans turning up without tickets, and pushing their way in are at fault. Obviously nobody ever means to cause harm, but not considering the possible consequences of your actions is never an excuse if/when the worst happens. Consider this, you are at the back of a crowd, and pushing the big lump in front of you, where does that force go? Would you push as hard if it was a small child or somebody frail? Well those people will be in the crowd somewhere, and all that force is going to get passed onto to those vulnerable people. Relying on someone else to mitigate the results of your own poor decisions is never ever a good idea. So whilst the police should have done better, they wouldn't have needed to if those without tickets hadn't been there, and excuses like "it happened all the time", "loads of people do it", "there was never a problem before", seem particularly weak in the face of 96 entirely avoidable deaths.
Point 2 - SYP opened the gate in order to alleviate said crush.
Point 3 - these first two points led to the crush within the ground.
In conclusion neither party is blameless and both most bear responsibility and own up to the fact that they partly caused these deaths.
Or are they just claims/assumptions?
Football fans were 'scum' back then and accusations like that with no evidence were always gona be thrown at the fans to attempt to lay the blame at their feet.
Never went robbing throughout europe did they? Never turned up at matches without tickets did they? It was all Chelsea/Charlton/Millwall/West Ham at Heysel wasn't it?