Yesterday just looked like the poles attacking anyone although to be fair if you march through Warsaw like that it should be expected. That video of the croats saving a bloke from the Ob was quality though!
I can see where SE10 is coming from, bit like the Orange parades in Ireland, if they went down certain roads/streets it would end in carnage, thats why they stopped it
I'm sure I heard last night that the Russian fans got permission to march. Now if that's true you have to ask serious questions about the Polish authorities, firstly, why would you let them? Second, once they had been granted permission surely you would ensure enough police where there to contain any situation.
If they hadn't have granted permission, do you think the russians would've just made their merry way to the ground without any reference to their independence day?
They probably thought this would be easier to contain, 5,000 all in one place and can police that more easily than hundreds of groups all spread out.
Yesterday just looked like the poles attacking anyone although to be fair if you march through Warsaw like that it should be expected. That video of the croats saving a bloke from the Ob was quality though!
really...
There's still a generation of Poles alive who survived the Siberian Death Camps. Now obviously those who were kicking off were too young to be directly affected and a large % of them probably were just thugs up for a ruck looking for any excuse but having said that there is still a lot of ill feeling and tension between a lot of Polish people and Russians.
I think marching through Warsaw celebrating Russia Day (some waving Soviet flags) was not a smart move. Not defending it or justifying it Im just saying that I can understand it.
Marching through Bagdhad waving the stars and stripes on 4th July in 50 odd years time probably wont be advisible and would be deemed a little insensitive. Or waving a German flag on Germany day in Tel Aviv probably would irk some people there despite the fact that resentment is based on past history and we should all move on.
I have close family who were taken from Poland to the Labour Camps in Siberia and whilst I can happily get on with my Russian colleagues and have the nous to know it is nothing to do with them or their generation trying to get family members who saw there homes taken and their siblings murdered or worked to death in front of their own eyes to let it go and leave it in the past is a different matter.
As i say not excusing the random violence and most of it was probably just piss head thugs up for a ruck but the ill feeling is there and understandable that they didnt all hold hands and sing "We are the World" as wrong as it may be.
Yesterday just looked like the poles attacking anyone although to be fair if you march through Warsaw like that it should be expected. That video of the croats saving a bloke from the Ob was quality though!
really...
There's still a generation of Poles alive who survived the Siberian Death Camps. Now obviously those who were kicking off were too young to be directly affected and a large % of them probably were just thugs up for a ruck looking for any excuse but having said that there is still a lot of ill feeling and tension between a lot of Polish people and Russians.
I think marching through Warsaw celebrating Russia Day (some waving Soviet flags) was not a smart move. Not defending it or justifying it Im just saying that I can understand it.
Marching through Bagdhad waving the stars and stripes on 4th July in 50 odd years time probably wont be advisible and would be deemed a little insensitive. Or waving a German flag on Germany day in Tel Aviv probably would irk some people there despite the fact that resentment is based on past history and we should all move on.
I have close family who were taken from Poland to the Labour Camps in Siberia and whilst I can happily get on with my Russian colleagues and have the nous to know it is nothing to do with them or their generation trying to get family members who saw there homes taken and their siblings murdered or worked to death in front of their own eyes to let it go and leave it in the past is a different matter.
As i say not excusing the random violence and most of it was probably just piss head thugs up for a ruck but the ill feeling is there and understandable that they didnt all hold hands and sing "We are the World" as wrong as it may be.
It was a bad move. as was 'this is russia' flag that they brought out during the national anthems. i still hold the feeling that it doesn’t excuse the polish for what they were doing. On the other hand would I if polish living in the memory of what has gone on before to my fellow people, like a bunch of russians marching through as if they owned the place. no i probably wouldn’t be very happy about it. puts that whole sun flag stunt into perspective. that was one newspaper with a try at banter. this is thousands marching, as if to make a point, into Warsaw.
and your examples are very valid. makes you think who thought marching was a good idea.
I’m sorry to hear about your family. they are still a country in a state of unrest though they try to make us believe otherwise. Putin is a disgusting individual. ex kgb. still taking anyone who speaks out against him.
I still dont think it justifies the violence and when you look at the type of wallys doing it they aren't likely to be solely doing it for political reasons. As was highlighted by the existence of Neo Nazis in Poland nowdays it shows there's a generation of severly disillusioned and brainwashed weirdos (in a vast minority).
Poland and Russia are only really what 20 odd years old in their present states politically and socially and the move from enforced Communism to what exists now means it is going to take time for the mentality of some elements to alter and the country isnt going to reflect Tonbridge wells or Islington over night in mindset.
And to be fair after Germany cheated us in Euro 96 the scenes afterwards werent much different. Think a Russian student even got stabbed to death being mistaken for a German.
Think overall it was hoolies looking for it and the powder keg of the politics and history just gave it a bit of superficial credibility.
Still was a bloody good game and hope the Poles can go through to the next round ;-)
Ha ha fair enough. Obviously want Poland through but also would be good to see Ukraine go through with us (England) of course as I think having the host nations in it keeps it interesting.
Plus if Poland get knocked out the staff in Starbucks will revert to being miserable again.
sorry for being ignorant but can someone explain to me why Poland and Russia do not get on, i know their neighbours but what has sparked the hatred??
1792 - Poland invaded by Russia - Poland effectively ceased to exist until after WW1 1939 - Poland invaded by Russia 1945-89 - Poland occupied and dominated by Soviet forces
That's the very brief version, but you get the idea.
On the eve of World War II, Soviet archives indicate a combined camp and colony population upwards of 1.6 million in 1939, according to V. P. Kozlov.[30] Anne Applebaum and Steven Rosefielde estimate that 1.2 to 1.5 million people were in Gulag system's prison camps and colonies when the war started.[31][32]
After the German invasion of Poland that marked the start of WWII, the Soviet Union invaded and annexed eastern parts of the Second Polish Republic. In 1940 the Soviet Union occupied Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Bessarabia (now the Republic of Moldova) and Bukovina. According to some estimates, hundreds of thousands of Polish citizens[33][34] and inhabitants of the other annexed lands, regardless of their ethnic origin, were arrested and sent to the gulag camps. However, according to the official data, the total number of sentences for political and antistate (espionage, terrorism) crimes in USSR in 1939-41 was 211,106.[18]
Approximately 300,000 Polish prisoners of war were captured by the USSR during and after the 'Polish Defensive War'.[35] Almost all of the captured officers and a large number of ordinary soldiers were then murdered (see Katyn massacre) or sent to Gulag.[36] Of the 10,000-12,000 Poles sent to Kolyma in 1940-1941, most POWs, only 583 men survived, released in 1942 to join the Polish Armed Forces in the East.[37] Out of Anders' 80,000 evacuees from Soviet Union gathered in Great Britain only 310 volunteered to return to Soviet-controlled Poland in 1947.[38]
During the war, Gulag populations declined sharply due to a steep rise in mortality in 1942–43. In the winter of 1941 a quarter of the Gulag's population died of starvation.[39] 516,841 prisoners died in prison camps in 1941-43.[40][41]
In 1943, the term katorga works (каторжные работы) was reintroduced. They were initially intended for Nazi collaborators, but then other categories of political prisoners (for example, members of deported peoples who fled from exile) were also sentenced to "katorga works". Prisoners sentenced to "katorga works" were sent to Gulag prison camps with the most harsh regime and many of them perished.[
My nan was 13 at the time when one night Russian soldiers knocked on her door in the middle of the night and told her and her family (polish peasant farmers with no political involvement) to get their warm clothes. At gun point they were rounded up with hundreds of others and put on cattle trains and driven to one of these Siberian labour camps. They were packed in like sardines and people died on the way and the Russians just threw their bodies out in the snow. They were then forced to work in the arctic conditions to near starvation and literally my nan worked her fingers to the bone (the bone protruded her skin). 3 or 4 or her brothers and sisters died in the camps.
There's not a day passes when she doesnt cry about the trauma she and thousands others like her suffered. When they finally got out of there their homes had been anexed by Russia and are now in what is Ukraine so they had no home and came to England as refugees.
Doesnt get the same coverage as the holocaust and whilst there wasnt the systematic execution and genocide there was still a similar aspect of horrific abuse of what were just normal, poor people who happened to be born in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Film out a few years ago called Katyn which tells the story. Not particularly nice to watch but tells what to many is the untold story of the second world war.
Got back from Donestk last night after near on 28 hours travelling back. A 13hr sleeper train in 37 degree heat is not for the faint hearted followed by a groggy bus and two flights, holes in teh ground for toilets etc etc. Was it worth is? Just about as always!!
Did not seen any trouble in Donetsk, although there were several battered and bruised England fans in the away end, apparently caused by the Russians again. Surprised how nice the place was but it's def got more expensive than a few years back.
Re, the Russians - they were all over Donetsk - easily more of them than England in the ground and loud and in your face. There must have literally been about 200 (obvious) French.
Anyone who has travelled to Russia/Poland/Ukraine with England knows they have all been like this for years! The political stuff would not help matters, but it was always going to be the most violent tournament in recent memory and it was obvious we would play very little or no part in that, as Englands support is a world appart from even 10 years back. Ask Aberdeen about Ukraine too!!
I would not be too keen on being in Donetsk after the Ukraine game if we knock them out.
Re, the punishment - it is good (and surprising) to see Uefa have gone through with it.
Henry, On the matter above, we were definitley told we would be chucked out of Euro 2000, after Charleio, if there was anymore of the same and i'm sure we got a similar threat after some very isolated chanting and going on the pitch to celebrate against the Turks in at the SOL.
I would also add that the trouble in Chorloi was the most overblown story ever - The Germans tauned the English, threw the first bottles, England responsed with some plastic chairs and the country went potty - not a single punch was thrown - it was a laughable over-reaction!!! You can't even compare that with what has been going on out here.
Also France 98 in Marsellei (sp) - England reacted to severe provocation and violence from the local North African population, after the hilarious decision to have us playing the Tunisians there in the first place.
I don't remember France getting threatened with expulsion after they put a copper in a Coma in Lens in 98? Turkey have played up at every game going and never got the explusion threats we got as far as i'm aware. Everytime England or English clubs go to Italy, someone gets stabbed, Spain have been racist beyone belief (esp Madrid 04), The police in most Countries we play love cracking English skulls with no justification and the locals in Eastern europe have been attacking innocent English fans for years - yet we got threats for the 2000 And SOL incidents, where nothing really happened.
We have been bad in the past yes, but the reactions from the Governing bodies to events around the late 90's to early 00's was ridiclious compared to what other countries were also doing and still are in my opinion.
Organiser, we may or may not have been threatened with expulsion but the fact is we weren't kicked out.
Just as after the abandonment of the Ireland game in 1995 we were still allowed to host Euro 96.
This is not about who is worse, who started it or who is to blame. Nearly every time another countries fans cause trouble people trot out the line "It was was England we would have been kicked out now" when all the facts say exactly the opposite.
I agree about being kicked out, but I don't and never have liked the fact we were threatened with it, when a lot lot worse was going on elsewhere - which for me is double standards from Uefa and the like.
Dublin was bad - some of the English fans sould be ahsamed of themselves that night. Yes the Irish started it with the bottles of piss being thrown and the IRA chants, but the response was pathetic (the throwing of chairs down on to innocents etc). A lot of the bad feeling came from what happened to England out there two years prior and the refusual to not play our anthem didn't help, but it does not excuse our behaviour that night.
I could fully understand threats after that game, but it was all the stuff after Euro 96 I was on about, when the actual threats did happen.
Dublin was bad - some of the English fans sould be ahsamed of themselves that night. Yes the Irish started it with the bottles of piss being thrown and the IRA chants, but the response was pathetic (the throwing of chairs down on to innocents etc). A lot of the bad feeling came from what happened to England out there two years prior and the refusual to not play our anthem didn't help, but it does not excuse our behaviour that night.
I could fully understand threats after that game, but it was all the stuff after Euro 96 I was on about, when the actual threats did happen.
i'm surprised that the anthem wouldn't have been played, according to wikipedia both anthems were and the irish jeered gstq.
Weren't the press a little bit more active than they would wish you to know out in Chaleroi? Buying rounds of drinks & what not to loosen the fans throwing arms ready for a few plastic chairs?
Dublin was bad - some of the English fans sould be ahsamed of themselves that night. Yes the Irish started it with the bottles of piss being thrown and the IRA chants, but the response was pathetic (the throwing of chairs down on to innocents etc). A lot of the bad feeling came from what happened to England out there two years prior and the refusual to not play our anthem didn't help, but it does not excuse our behaviour that night.
I could fully understand threats after that game, but it was all the stuff after Euro 96 I was on about, when the actual threats did happen.
i'm surprised that the anthem wouldn't have been played, according to wikipedia both anthems were and the irish jeered gstq.
Weren't the press a little bit more active than they would wish you to know out in Chaleroi? Buying rounds of drinks & what not to loosen the fans throwing arms ready for a few plastic chairs?
I was out there with a few Charlton and Chelsea we walked into a bar full Derby County lads who had not bought a beer all day as they were bought by sun reporters! As soon as a few Germans walked pass the reporter shouted "The Krauts are here" thinking that all the Derby lads would start smashing it up but they all stayed seated and told them to do one and nice try!!
Comments
That video of the croats saving a bloke from the Ob was quality though!
That rivalry is a lot more than football and the Russians marching would've known that.
They probably thought this would be easier to contain, 5,000 all in one place and can police that more easily than hundreds of groups all spread out.
whatever floats your boat
This only relates to the attack on the stewards in the ground and not last night's events.
I think marching through Warsaw celebrating Russia Day (some waving Soviet flags) was not a smart move. Not defending it or justifying it Im just saying that I can understand it.
Marching through Bagdhad waving the stars and stripes on 4th July in 50 odd years time probably wont be advisible and would be deemed a little insensitive. Or waving a German flag on Germany day in Tel Aviv probably would irk some people there despite the fact that resentment is based on past history and we should all move on.
I have close family who were taken from Poland to the Labour Camps in Siberia and whilst I can happily get on with my Russian colleagues and have the nous to know it is nothing to do with them or their generation trying to get family members who saw there homes taken and their siblings murdered or worked to death in front of their own eyes to let it go and leave it in the past is a different matter.
As i say not excusing the random violence and most of it was probably just piss head thugs up for a ruck but the ill feeling is there and understandable that they didnt all hold hands and sing "We are the World" as wrong as it may be.
It was a bad move. as was 'this is russia' flag that they brought out during the national anthems. i still hold the feeling that it doesn’t excuse the polish for what they were doing.
On the other hand would I if polish living in the memory of what has gone on before to my fellow people, like a bunch of russians marching through as if they owned the place. no i probably wouldn’t be very happy about it. puts that whole sun flag stunt into perspective. that was one newspaper with a try at banter. this is thousands marching, as if to make a point, into Warsaw.
and your examples are very valid. makes you think who thought marching was a good idea.
I’m sorry to hear about your family.
they are still a country in a state of unrest though they try to make us believe otherwise. Putin is a disgusting individual. ex kgb.
still taking anyone who speaks out against him.
Poland and Russia are only really what 20 odd years old in their present states politically and socially and the move from enforced Communism to what exists now means it is going to take time for the mentality of some elements to alter and the country isnt going to reflect Tonbridge wells or Islington over night in mindset.
And to be fair after Germany cheated us in Euro 96 the scenes afterwards werent much different. Think a Russian student even got stabbed to death being mistaken for a German.
Think overall it was hoolies looking for it and the powder keg of the politics and history just gave it a bit of superficial credibility.
Still was a bloody good game and hope the Poles can go through to the next round ;-)
Plus if Poland get knocked out the staff in Starbucks will revert to being miserable again.
i believe that polish suffered greatly in times gone by due to the russians and their behaviour during the war and cold war times
might be wrong
1939 - Poland invaded by Russia
1945-89 - Poland occupied and dominated by Soviet forces
That's the very brief version, but you get the idea.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag#During_World_War_II
On the eve of World War II, Soviet archives indicate a combined camp and colony population upwards of 1.6 million in 1939, according to V. P. Kozlov.[30] Anne Applebaum and Steven Rosefielde estimate that 1.2 to 1.5 million people were in Gulag system's prison camps and colonies when the war started.[31][32]
After the German invasion of Poland that marked the start of WWII, the Soviet Union invaded and annexed eastern parts of the Second Polish Republic. In 1940 the Soviet Union occupied Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Bessarabia (now the Republic of Moldova) and Bukovina. According to some estimates, hundreds of thousands of Polish citizens[33][34] and inhabitants of the other annexed lands, regardless of their ethnic origin, were arrested and sent to the gulag camps. However, according to the official data, the total number of sentences for political and antistate (espionage, terrorism) crimes in USSR in 1939-41 was 211,106.[18]
Approximately 300,000 Polish prisoners of war were captured by the USSR during and after the 'Polish Defensive War'.[35] Almost all of the captured officers and a large number of ordinary soldiers were then murdered (see Katyn massacre) or sent to Gulag.[36] Of the 10,000-12,000 Poles sent to Kolyma in 1940-1941, most POWs, only 583 men survived, released in 1942 to join the Polish Armed Forces in the East.[37] Out of Anders' 80,000 evacuees from Soviet Union gathered in Great Britain only 310 volunteered to return to Soviet-controlled Poland in 1947.[38]
During the war, Gulag populations declined sharply due to a steep rise in mortality in 1942–43. In the winter of 1941 a quarter of the Gulag's population died of starvation.[39] 516,841 prisoners died in prison camps in 1941-43.[40][41]
In 1943, the term katorga works (каторжные работы) was reintroduced. They were initially intended for Nazi collaborators, but then other categories of political prisoners (for example, members of deported peoples who fled from exile) were also sentenced to "katorga works". Prisoners sentenced to "katorga works" were sent to Gulag prison camps with the most harsh regime and many of them perished.[
My nan was 13 at the time when one night Russian soldiers knocked on her door in the middle of the night and told her and her family (polish peasant farmers with no political involvement) to get their warm clothes. At gun point they were rounded up with hundreds of others and put on cattle trains and driven to one of these Siberian labour camps. They were packed in like sardines and people died on the way and the Russians just threw their bodies out in the snow. They were then forced to work in the arctic conditions to near starvation and literally my nan worked her fingers to the bone (the bone protruded her skin). 3 or 4 or her brothers and sisters died in the camps.
There's not a day passes when she doesnt cry about the trauma she and thousands others like her suffered. When they finally got out of there their homes had been anexed by Russia and are now in what is Ukraine so they had no home and came to England as refugees.
Doesnt get the same coverage as the holocaust and whilst there wasnt the systematic execution and genocide there was still a similar aspect of horrific abuse of what were just normal, poor people who happened to be born in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Bit more about it here... http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-5109.html
Did not seen any trouble in Donetsk, although there were several battered and bruised England fans in the away end, apparently caused by the Russians again. Surprised how nice the place was but it's def got more expensive than a few years back.
Re, the Russians - they were all over Donetsk - easily more of them than England in the ground and loud and in your face. There must have literally been about 200 (obvious) French.
Anyone who has travelled to Russia/Poland/Ukraine with England knows they have all been like this for years! The political stuff would not help matters, but it was always going to be the most violent tournament in recent memory and it was obvious we would play very little or no part in that, as Englands support is a world appart from even 10 years back.
Ask Aberdeen about Ukraine too!!
I would not be too keen on being in Donetsk after the Ukraine game if we knock them out.
Re, the punishment - it is good (and surprising) to see Uefa have gone through with it.
Henry, On the matter above, we were definitley told we would be chucked out of Euro 2000, after Charleio, if there was anymore of the same and i'm sure we got a similar threat after some very isolated chanting and going on the pitch to celebrate against the Turks in at the SOL.
I would also add that the trouble in Chorloi was the most overblown story ever - The Germans tauned the English, threw the first bottles, England responsed with some plastic chairs and the country went potty - not a single punch was thrown - it was a laughable over-reaction!!! You can't even compare that with what has been going on out here.
Also France 98 in Marsellei (sp) - England reacted to severe provocation and violence from the local North African population, after the hilarious decision to have us playing the Tunisians there in the first place.
I don't remember France getting threatened with expulsion after they put a copper in a Coma in Lens in 98? Turkey have played up at every game going and never got the explusion threats we got as far as i'm aware. Everytime England or English clubs go to Italy, someone gets stabbed, Spain have been racist beyone belief (esp Madrid 04), The police in most Countries we play love cracking English skulls with no justification and the locals in Eastern europe have been attacking innocent English fans for years - yet we got threats for the 2000 And SOL incidents, where nothing really happened.
We have been bad in the past yes, but the reactions from the Governing bodies to events around the late 90's to early 00's was ridiclious compared to what other countries were also doing and still are in my opinion.
Just as after the abandonment of the Ireland game in 1995 we were still allowed to host Euro 96.
This is not about who is worse, who started it or who is to blame. Nearly every time another countries fans cause trouble people trot out the line "It was was England we would have been kicked out now" when all the facts say exactly the opposite.
That was all i was trying to say.
In terms of injuries perhaps but how many games have had to be abandoned?
I could fully understand threats after that game, but it was all the stuff after Euro 96 I was on about, when the actual threats did happen.
i'm surprised that the anthem wouldn't have been played, according to wikipedia both anthems were and the irish jeered gstq.
Wiki Link
The reporters faces were a picture......LOL