Well, thats a surprise. We (the country) spent £8m chasing Harry boy for considerably less, I wonder if anyone will be held to account for this. I think I know how this will pan out
I was going to start this thread. I was in a bad mood when I got in yesterday and when I saw the first thread about Rangers going into administration I thought it was going to be another anti Catholic, anti Irish sectarian outburst from the usual suspects; and I always respond to that because I know this forum is read by other fans and frankly, I find it embarrassing.
However, on reflection it was my post that was the first extreme and intemperate post and the one that caused it to be closed. This is a massive football story and the Rangers followers on here, and everyone else, should have the chance to debate it. So I am glad it has been started again.
I had no idea how serious this situation was when I made my comment yesterday. I never thought for a moment that there was the slightest chance of Rangers going under. I hate Rangers, as I hate Man United, but, as a football fan I genuinely would not want to see either club go out of business.
Until HMRC winds up a big name club this will keep happening. HMRC will be the main creditor this time surely, and if so they could have Rangers wound up by rejecting the Pompey/Palace style deal of £0.0001 in the £ that will be coming their way. Whether they will make a stand remains to be seen. They don't have a great track record against footy clubs.
I predict that Rangers will take their place in Europe next season and the taxpayer will be down to the tune of over £50m. And yes, a few local small businesses will take a hit too.
Well, thats a surprise. We (the country) spent £8m chasing Harry boy for considerably less, I wonder if anyone will be held to account for this. I think I know how this will pan out
Massive difference.
My understanding is that Rangers have been fairly open and transparent about what they have done, it's just that the PAYE "scheme" they put in to save them tax doesn't work - so now it looks as though they'll have to pay it (and penalties) going back years.
Harry on the other hand was alleged to have squirrelled some cash away and not declared it purely to avoid tax.
One's avoidance and the other is evasion. You can get put away for evasion, but not really for avoidance.
Until HMRC winds up a big name club this will keep happening. HMRC will be the main creditor this time surely, and if so they could have Rangers wound up by rejecting the Pompey/Palace style deal of £0.0001 in the £ that will be coming their way. Whether they will make a stand remains to be seen. They don't have a great track record against footy clubs.
I predict that Rangers will take their place in Europe next season and the taxpayer will be down to the tune of over £50m. And yes, a few local small businesses will take a hit too.
The difference this time is that they owe the tax to HMRC because they have tried to be "clever" in the past with an avoidance scheme that, evidently, doesn't work.
In the past with the likes of Pompey, Palace, etc they owed tax because they apparently couldn't afford to pay it, in the same way that people can't afford to pay other creditors - this one just happened to be the taxman.
Is there a difference? Yes, I think so - and unfortunately for Rangers this could be the one the taxman has been waiting for as it would send out a very clear message - "don't try to avoid the tax that is due AND pay it on time".
I know there are a few Rangers fans on here so I hope for there sakes that I'm wrong on this.
Well, thats a surprise. We (the country) spent £8m chasing Harry boy for considerably less, I wonder if anyone will be held to account for this. I think I know how this will pan out
Massive difference.
My understanding is that Rangers have been open and transparent about what they have done, it's just that the PAYE "scheme" they put in to save them tax doesn't work - so now it looks as though they'll have to pay it (and penalties) going back years.
Harry on the other hand was alleged to have squirrelled some cash away and not declared it purely to avoid tax.
One's avoidance and the other is evasion. You can get put away for evasion, but not really for avoidance.
I'm not bothered what the differences are, as a tax payer I'm sick and tired of business/individuals not meeting their commitments and the HMRC failing to collect. I,and most of the population dont get that option. If Rangers have arranged their finances this way how many other clubs are teetering on the brink?
If you understand the differences charltonkeston then you can see that Rangers are probably in more serious do-do then everyone who's gone before them. HMRC still wont collect, so not really sure of the point you're making, but this is serious.
If you understand the differences charltonkeston then you can see that Rangers are probably in more serious do-do then everyone who's gone before them. HMRC still wont collect, so not really sure of the point you're making, but this is serious.
I do understand I also understand if Rangers are here next week or next year it will be us that will be paying for their mis-managment.
Now i might not be the sharpest tool in the box but i thought if you wound a company up you could only expect to receive a a small percentage of say 10 pence in the pound for example. So HMRC can only expect to get a small proportion of what they are owed and Rangers will start a new limited company called Rangers 2012 possibly keeping most of their assets and ditching all of their debt.
Small price to pay for losing ten points or have i got this wrong. Educate me please.
I was going to start this thread. I was in a bad mood when I got in yesterday and when I saw the first thread about Rangers going into administration I thought it was going to be another anti Catholic, anti Irish sectarian outburst from the usual suspects; and I always respond to that because I know this forum is read by other fans and frankly, I find it embarrassing.
However, on reflection it was my post that was the first extreme and intemperate post and the one that caused it to be closed. This is a massive football story and the Rangers followers on here, and everyone else, should have the chance to debate it. So I am glad it has been started again.
I had no idea how serious this situation was when I made my comment yesterday. I never thought for a moment that there was the slightest chance of Rangers going under. I hate Rangers, as I hate Man United, but, as a football fan I genuinely would not want to see either club go out of business.
Fair play.
Not the 'usual' money problems that clubs have. This is alot more serious money.
Would hate for them to go under but don't think they will. Too big a club and would f##k up the whole league and lower.
The locals up there probably know more than me but don't undestand why Whyte is being blamed etc. Seems they inherited the problems from when Murray was in charge.
Until HMRC winds up a big name club this will keep happening. HMRC will be the main creditor this time surely, and if so they could have Rangers wound up by rejecting the Pompey/Palace style deal of £0.0001 in the £ that will be coming their way. Whether they will make a stand remains to be seen. They don't have a great track record against footy clubs.
I predict that Rangers will take their place in Europe next season and the taxpayer will be down to the tune of over £50m. And yes, a few local small businesses will take a hit too.
Just talking about it now on 5Live, apparently there is an on going tax dispute dating back several years that has nothing to do with Whyte. HOWEVER, there is also 9m quids worth of unpaid PAYE that post dates the takeover so has happened very much on Whyte's watch.
Not a fan of either Rangers or Celtic, but if Celtic fans are basking in this then they will be in for a shock.
Without Rangers to play 4 times per year, they will struggle to make much money, the league will become even more boring and they will be facing similar financial issues very soon.
The lawyers who acted for whyte on the takeover are potentially going to get the arse sued off them. Apparently the EBT and potential liabilities were fully and fairly disclosed so unless whyte knew it all and decided to proceed regardless of advice to the contrary then it is negligence central.
Sad day and as for Celtic and others gloating, they and Scottish football are dead without Rangers. The dualism and rivalry makes both of these clubs and just about papers over the cracks of how poor and underwhelming the football is up there. Without Rangers the tv goes down the gates go down the interest goes down.
One last thing, there are a fair few clubs down here who used EBTs to pay wages so bet they are bricking it now... you cannot just come up with something clever go to town on it and never get clearance, just use it as pivotal to your business model. Action needs to be taken against the previous regime.
Celtic I believe were in a not too disimilar position in 1994 - and Rangers fans were doing the gloating then. But without each other, both clubs are nothing. Without anyone to hate, what is there to do? Maybe Scotland would be better off without the pair of them.
The Celtic mob seem very happy.Bet they will still be laughing when they find the telly money goes,who will pay for a St Johnsone etc v Celtic? If you look at quite a few spl grounds or teams that have been recently in the spl the away end is a substantial size to cash in on the hopefully four old firm games a season.This could finish Scottish football as we know it.In a few years a big game in Scotland could be the play off for an early stage of the Europa League Celtic v Prestatyn Town! I do wonder though,the nine million for the recent tax bill excluded, is Rangers (and I bet there will be many other clubs following this with their collective arse cheeks clenched) must have been told that this trust fund method of paying players was legal.Is this a case of the tax man moving the goal posts to make a few quid? Is this why the whole thing is at a tribunal? If it is the case and it is ruled in favour of Rangers,then they will get away with lesser payments/fines. The other way of looking at it is if the tax man dives in to football to get its owed money will the damage he will do cost him more than what he will get? In Rangers case £75 million may be owed but he has no chance of getting his hands on much of that and if the club closes surely with the money he will loose will outweigh what he will gain from shutting the club.The previous sentence the word Rangers could be substituted for many a club.
They can join the Evo-Stick (ow w/ever) and work their way up as far as I'm concerned. Why should any club give up their permiership place for Celtic or anyone else.
All this "Scottish football is dead without Rangers" is nonsense. Rangers and to an extent Celtic were poor sides through a lot of the early 80s pre Souness/Murray. During that period Dundee United got to a European Cup semi and and UEFA final. Aberdeen won the ECWC. Scotland produced better players and qualified for five world cups on the bounce. With the two financially dominating it's become impossible for the likes of Hearts to compete. If any youngster looks any good they are snapped up by the big boys and often left to go mouldy in the reserves. Fans become dissolute as their club is effectively playing to finish third in a rubbish league. Youngsters support the old firm regardless of location partly due to blanket media coverage. No Rangers does put a big dent in Celtic but not necessary the Scottish league.
Celtic would be reasonably worried because a large proportion of their Season Ticket holders buy the ticket for the Old Firm games , balance that against the fact that apparently Rangers have already promised their season ticket money for the next three years against debts so they will not have any meaningful attendance income giving the Celts virtually a free pass to Champions League qualification .
Would Celtic wish to trade that for a place in the EPL ? and as Rodney asks at whose expense ? If either Old Firm side made it to the Prem within 5 years they would be competing at the top against the Mnachesters . Could that also put a different spin on the devolution debate north of the border ? I'm sure Alex salmond would be against it.
I don't care how bleak things look for Rangers right now I just know that they will kick off next season with a squad of players capable of winning the title without a care in the world. The only losers will be the taxpayer and creditors. That's a FACT
If Rangers do cease to exist (which won't happen) then that will be the trigger for Celtic to join the Premier League.
There's no way they'd be allowed to join the EPL straight off the bat. They are, at best a Championship level team and personally I think they'd even struggle there. They look good in Scotland because the competition is absolutely woeful. They rarely acheive anything in Europe because they are only slightly less woeful.
If Rangers do cease to exist (which won't happen) then that will be the trigger for Celtic to join the Premier League.
There's no way they'd be allowed to join the EPL straight off the bat. They are, at best a Championship level team and personally I think they'd even struggle there. They look good in Scotland because the competition is absolutely woeful. They rarely acheive anything in Europe because they are only slightly less woeful.
Isn't that mainly because they only have SPL TV revenue ? If they were in the Premier League either (or both) of the Old Firm would be competeing for a top seven finish within a couple of years.
Incorporating the Old Firm into the Prem would make it a great spectical, but I'm not sure if it would really benefit Scottish football.
I agree it's unfair and I don't want them in any English league (them or Rangers) but with all the politics and money involved, I reckon that they would do something like a play-off between Celtic and the third from bottom Prem club at the end of a season in a year or two, and if Celtic won it they could then put them there on some misguided "merit".
TV people would rather see Man Utd vs. Celtic in the league rather than Man Utd vs QPR (or Charlton) etc. They will find a way of shoe horning them in and pretending it's fair.
All of this is if Rangers weren't about - as then joining the EPL would be VERY attractive to Celtic, and incorporating one team rather than two would be more easily swallowed by the armchair fans.
Of course as we all know Rangers will pay back a penny in the pound and somehow bounce back from this unscathed while leaving the tax payer and local businesses out of pocket. But hypothetically and unprovably speaking, what I've said above is FACT. (FACT)
I don't care how bleak things look for Rangers right now I just know that they will kick off next season with a squad of players capable of winning the title without a care in the world. The only losers will be the taxpayer and creditors. That's a FACT
Does the HMRC except terms or do they insist a company pays in full or gets wound up and its assets desposed with. I feel a shoeing coming for the tax payer.
Rangers are admin. That doesn't mean they are going out of existance. The old firm will continue to trade.
I can't see either of Rantic or Celgers in the EPL because it is no one's interests but theirs.
The smaller prem clubs don't want them as it means two of them giving up a place. The bigger prem clubs don't want two very well supported clubs competing for the European places (which they will after a few years of Sky money) The Police don't want there fans (remember Manchester for the UEFA cup final) The FA and SFA don't want to give UEFA any excuse to demand a GB team
Sky TV might well want them but they have their games already.
As I understand it the creditors have to accept the deal made by the company in administration. If the major (and basically only) creditor is the HMRC they will decide what happens.
I would like to see them wind up the company and sell the stadium to a developer and build houses on it. I have no issue with companies trying to reduce their tax bill, but I do have a problem with them not paying their tax bill. As things stand there is millions of pounds of tax payers’ money that will probably have to be written off. The figure of £84m has been mentioned in news reports.
That is a staggering amount of money, and on top of that there is something like £11m that is not related to a tax scheme that has backfired.
HMRC shouldn't allow the administrators/new owners, to force them to take 10p in the £. They should, literally, repossess the ground, the players’ contracts and sell it all off. Rangers have no right to be allowed to rise again from this.
I think you may find the new owners have hived off the ground already.
This tax scheme has been around for years. HMRC have never accepted that it works but it has nevertheless been widely sold to many British companies. It is therefore a big deal to HMRC.
The Tribunal's decision is not public yet but it seems fairly obvious that Rangers already know they have lost and can't afford to pay up. So, you see, HMRC has to make an example of Rangers "pour encourager les autres". Otherwise a whole host of companies will think its ok to do tax schemes that don't work and get out of it by going into administration. Oh! Hold on a minute.....perhaps that is already happening...?
It's hard to see why anyone would want the club. Massive debts and mortgaged to the hilt (Whyte has borrowed against season ticket sales for the next few years - tickets that they may well not even be able to sell in the light of current turmoil). The only way I see out of it is outright liquidation, but it'll depend on whether the re-formed club will be able to retain the ground and other assets and - most importantly - where Rangers 2012 will start in the league system. In England they'd be back at square one, but I wonder if in Scotland they'll be able to cut a deal to kick off in the SPL in the light of their financial importance to all of the other clubs. But would UEFA put up with such a thing? Unfortunately whatever the outcome these good loyalists will end up costing the crown a pretty penny, making life miserable for their fans and probably wreck the exsistence of a number of their loyal staff members. Terrible business. You wonder if any other clubs are casting a nervous eye at their "staff benefit" schemes.
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We (the country) spent £8m chasing Harry boy for considerably less, I wonder if anyone will be held to account for this.
I think I know how this will pan out
However, on reflection it was my post that was the first extreme and intemperate post and the one that caused it to be closed.
This is a massive football story and the Rangers followers on here, and everyone else, should have the chance to debate it. So I am glad it has been started again.
I had no idea how serious this situation was when I made my comment yesterday. I never thought for a moment that there was the slightest chance of Rangers going under. I hate Rangers, as I hate Man United, but, as a football fan I genuinely would not want to see either club go out of business.
I predict that Rangers will take their place in Europe next season and the taxpayer will be down to the tune of over £50m. And yes, a few local small businesses will take a hit too.
My understanding is that Rangers have been fairly open and transparent about what they have done, it's just that the PAYE "scheme" they put in to save them tax doesn't work - so now it looks as though they'll have to pay it (and penalties) going back years.
Harry on the other hand was alleged to have squirrelled some cash away and not declared it purely to avoid tax.
One's avoidance and the other is evasion. You can get put away for evasion, but not really for avoidance.
In the past with the likes of Pompey, Palace, etc they owed tax because they apparently couldn't afford to pay it, in the same way that people can't afford to pay other creditors - this one just happened to be the taxman.
Is there a difference? Yes, I think so - and unfortunately for Rangers this could be the one the taxman has been waiting for as it would send out a very clear message - "don't try to avoid the tax that is due AND pay it on time".
I know there are a few Rangers fans on here so I hope for there sakes that I'm wrong on this.
If Rangers have arranged their finances this way how many other clubs are teetering on the brink?
Its a huge story and one that is very disturbing to true football fans like myself,
One club is going to fall we all know that and mark my words they will wait for the biggest one to hit them first and hard and use as an example
all Charlton Fans should look at the mess at Rangers and say to themselves i am glad we are in this Tinpot league and never went into admin
because atleast we have a club, there is a real chance this lot will go under and out of business totally
Now as a firm fan of her majestys 11 i find what has happened there a disgrace but not surprised by it either
So HMRC can only expect to get a small proportion of what they are owed and Rangers will start a new limited company called Rangers 2012 possibly keeping most of their assets and ditching all of their debt.
Small price to pay for losing ten points or have i got this wrong. Educate me please.
Not the 'usual' money problems that clubs have. This is alot more serious money.
Would hate for them to go under but don't think they will. Too big a club and would f##k up the whole league and lower.
The locals up there probably know more than me but don't undestand why Whyte is being blamed etc. Seems they inherited the problems from when Murray was in charge.
The Celtic view of things
http://kerrydalestreet.co.uk/topic/8647372/1/
As I am neither I'll concentrate on the Addicks.
Without Rangers to play 4 times per year, they will struggle to make much money, the league will become even more boring and they will be facing similar financial issues very soon.
Sad day and as for Celtic and others gloating, they and Scottish football are dead without Rangers. The dualism and rivalry makes both of these clubs and just about papers over the cracks of how poor and underwhelming the football is up there. Without Rangers the tv goes down the gates go down the interest goes down.
One last thing, there are a fair few clubs down here who used EBTs to pay wages so bet they are bricking it now... you cannot just come up with something clever go to town on it and never get clearance, just use it as pivotal to your business model. Action needs to be taken against the previous regime.
WATP
I do wonder though,the nine million for the recent tax bill excluded, is Rangers (and I bet there will be many other clubs following this with their collective arse cheeks clenched) must have been told that this trust fund method of paying players was legal.Is this a case of the tax man moving the goal posts to make a few quid? Is this why the whole thing is at a tribunal? If it is the case and it is ruled in favour of Rangers,then they will get away with lesser payments/fines.
The other way of looking at it is if the tax man dives in to football to get its owed money will the damage he will do cost him more than what he will get? In Rangers case £75 million may be owed but he has no chance of getting his hands on much of that and if the club closes surely with the money he will loose will outweigh what he will gain from shutting the club.The previous sentence the word Rangers could be substituted for many a club.
Would Celtic wish to trade that for a place in the EPL ? and as Rodney asks at whose expense ? If either Old Firm side made it to the Prem within 5 years they would be competing at the top against the Mnachesters . Could that also put a different spin on the devolution debate north of the border ? I'm sure Alex salmond would be against it.
Incorporating the Old Firm into the Prem would make it a great spectical, but I'm not sure if it would really benefit Scottish football.
TV people would rather see Man Utd vs. Celtic in the league rather than Man Utd vs QPR (or Charlton) etc. They will find a way of shoe horning them in and pretending it's fair.
All of this is if Rangers weren't about - as then joining the EPL would be VERY attractive to Celtic, and incorporating one team rather than two would be more easily swallowed by the armchair fans.
Of course as we all know Rangers will pay back a penny in the pound and somehow bounce back from this unscathed while leaving the tax payer and local businesses out of pocket. But hypothetically and unprovably speaking, what I've said above is FACT. (FACT)
I feel a shoeing coming for the tax payer.
I can't see either of Rantic or Celgers in the EPL because it is no one's interests but theirs.
The smaller prem clubs don't want them as it means two of them giving up a place.
The bigger prem clubs don't want two very well supported clubs competing for the European places (which they will after a few years of Sky money)
The Police don't want there fans (remember Manchester for the UEFA cup final)
The FA and SFA don't want to give UEFA any excuse to demand a GB team
Sky TV might well want them but they have their games already.
I would like to see them wind up the company and sell the stadium to a developer and build houses on it. I have no issue with companies trying to reduce their tax bill, but I do have a problem with them not paying their tax bill. As things stand there is millions of pounds of tax payers’ money that will probably have to be written off. The figure of £84m has been mentioned in news reports.
That is a staggering amount of money, and on top of that there is something like £11m that is not related to a tax scheme that has backfired.
HMRC shouldn't allow the administrators/new owners, to force them to take 10p in the £. They should, literally, repossess the ground, the players’ contracts and sell it all off. Rangers have no right to be allowed to rise again from this.
This tax scheme has been around for years. HMRC have never accepted that it works but it
has nevertheless been widely sold to many British companies. It is therefore a big deal to HMRC.
The Tribunal's decision is not public yet but it seems fairly obvious that Rangers already know they have lost and can't afford to pay up. So, you see, HMRC has to make an example of Rangers "pour encourager les autres". Otherwise a whole host of companies will think its ok to do tax schemes that don't work and get out of it by going into administration. Oh! Hold on a minute.....perhaps that is already happening...?
Obviously Wednesday isn't MASSIVE enough for him.